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soezgg
01-21-2003, 08:01 PM
the speed factor is going to be alot like last year

last year was most definitely a speed/power game.

yet few teams really opted for a crazy fast robot.


some teams, claiming to have up to 20 fps (you know who im talking about) for some reason never went more than 8-9 fps.

hah.

duh? yeah duh.

Frank(Aflak)
01-21-2003, 08:08 PM
Our 'no load' speed this year gives us about 7.8 meters per second. Reducing that to 7, to account for efficiency, or lack thereof, and then maybe say 6.5 just to not overrate ourselves, we should have about 20 feet per second.

We are definatly going speed. At 6.5 meters per second you can jump the ramp, like, go up on side and not touch ground till the carpet on the other. We wanted to shoot for cool with that, although it forced us to rethink our chassis design so it can take a landing.

It will look really cool when we have our 'wings' extended, they just increase puching area, but they look like forward swept wings.

All we gotta get now is to get our sprockets, chain, and pillow blocks, and wait on the 80/20 people for our frame.

Weeee, I can't wait.

We aren't going to be a puching team, definatly, we are expecting only around 600 N of thrust.

Yan Wang
01-21-2003, 08:10 PM
(seeing as how you clicked New Thread instead of Reply... :D)

It's highly unlikely that a team that's incredibly fast or strong can perform very well in this year's game. For stackers who can consistently stack as well as 121's robot could get balls, then it's not important if the top spee is 6feet/sec. I think that the game can be won this year at a slower speed than last year's yet faster speed is required during autonomous mode.

Jnadke
01-21-2003, 08:20 PM
What about speed up the ramp? People freely give out erroneous speed values, but are they taking into account current constraints and torque constraints? You are propelling a 130lb bot up a 14* incline. That's 308 Newtons of force over a distance of approximately 2.5 meters.


Sure, momentum might be able to propel you up the ramp, but what about if you encounter problems?

Frank(Aflak)
01-21-2003, 08:22 PM
I dunno, a real fast robot in skilled hands can (we hope) compete with some fancier robots.

I mean, we lack resources to build a stacking mechanism, so we had to go pusher.

To spice things up and give us an edge over the other rookie teams in the area (all but two of them are rookies, as i recall) we are doing four motor four wheel drive, with a really large pushing surface. We will probably not be able to outpush other veteran team's robots, but we hope to be able to outmanuever them. You can't save your stack if we can get past you.

Also, 130 lbs going 7 m/s is lots of momentum. If we hit you full speed we can probably move you quite a bit . . . .

We are building our frame stand severe shocks - what if we hit the rap at full speed? *CRUNCH*

(edit - we have enough push to accelerate up the ramp at a decent rate)

Cory
01-21-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by Frank(Aflak)
We will probably not be able to outpush other veteran team's robots, but we hope to be able to outmanuever them. You can't save your stack if we can get past you.

Also, 130 lbs going 7 m/s is lots of momentum. If we hit you full speed we can probably move you quite a bit . . . .

We are building our frame stand severe shocks - what if we hit the rap at full speed? *CRUNCH*

(edit - we have enough push to accelerate up the ramp at a decent rate)

Dude: i dont mean to diss your team/you/robot, but there is just no way in hell you can turn at 20fps. even using a holonomic drive system, it will not happen. Furthermore, I would love to see how you withstand the shock of such an impact... I just dont think it is possible:ahh:

Cory

JVN
01-21-2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Frank(Aflak)
I dunno, a real fast robot in skilled hands can (we hope) compete with some fancier robots.


Frank,
Good luck, but your forgetting that a lot of the "fancier robots" will also be really fast, and also in skilled hands.
While no one can argue with the laws of physics, you actually have to hit something in order to use that wonderful momentum you were describing. Besides, did you think of robots with passive defense systems, like ramped sides and such? Does anyone remember "Big Jimmy" from 2000? This year might mark the return of the "wedge-bots".

Who says 2002 was the year of the drivetrain? I think it's 2003.

Duke 13370
01-21-2003, 08:39 PM
I wish i could brag about our robot, but we'll be doing good to move this year.:(

Frank(Aflak)
01-21-2003, 09:47 PM
We are rookies, just going for a distinguishing factor. Really fast was the easiest and probably the best we can hope for. We really wanted to see it get air time. We will probably destroy it by the end of regionals . . but we aren't (I don't think so, anyway) headed to nats so it only needs to make it through one event without causing serious damage to itself.

Yah. turning will be an issue at high speeds. So will wedges. I can just see our robot going flying off into the judges table off of a wedge robot . . . (CHARGE . . . errrr, oh-uh . . should we break for the exit?)

Besides, we plan to use it for bowling for freshmen in the off season (Run for your lives! Its the nerdclubbers!)

GregT
01-21-2003, 10:57 PM
I REALLY hope FIRST thought through what happens when a bunch of 130 lb robots are running around at 10 ft/s autonomously (towards the same spot none the less).

Boy I can't wait to see a regional, be preapared to completely rebuild sub-systems.

Greg

Madison
01-21-2003, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Frank(Aflak)
I dunno, a real fast robot in skilled hands can (we hope) compete with some fancier robots.

I mean, we lack resources to build a stacking mechanism, so we had to go pusher.

To spice things up and give us an edge over the other rookie teams in the area (all but two of them are rookies, as i recall) we are doing four motor four wheel drive, with a really large pushing surface. We will probably not be able to outpush other veteran team's robots, but we hope to be able to outmanuever them. You can't save your stack if we can get past you.

Also, 130 lbs going 7 m/s is lots of momentum. If we hit you full speed we can probably move you quite a bit . . . .

We are building our frame stand severe shocks - what if we hit the rap at full speed? *CRUNCH*

(edit - we have enough push to accelerate up the ramp at a decent rate)

How much output torque is your drivetrain meant to put down to the floor?

Also, remember that if the other robots are moving toward you, they'll carry just as much momentum (give or take, of course) . . . you won't push them. You'll both stop with a loud thud. This was an integral part of 810's strategy last year, and, while it worked (we moved at 10 ft/s last season, and probably about the same this season in high), we did significant damage to ourselves and to the robots we hit. It wasn't pretty.

Anything above 15 ft/s, I think, will be impossible to control accurately.

If you want to run around just smashing into stuff, that's another story. That's not all that elegant, though, and it's not really a defining feature where I am concerned.

Ken Leung
01-22-2003, 06:49 AM
It take quite a bit of motors to speed up your robot up to more than 15 ft/sec last year, because it will draw too much current using just 2 motors. You have to gear it high to get high speed, and with that you trade away torque, and stress your motors harder.

Even with the bigger circuit breaker this year, I will watch out for gearing the 2 drills into high speed. Anything more than 10 ft/sec is going to take away lots of torque, and without enough momentum you won't even get on top of the ramp. I predict a lot of teams are going to try gearing the motor really fast, and fail at getting up the ramp the first few try, especially the 1st year teams.

My suggestion is, test it out before you ship the robot. Get a good size ramp with the wire mess, and see if your robot can get on top without momentum. Because you won't get a head start to speed up your robot on flat ground every time.

For the more experienced team, I would try to build a 4 motor drive train for a fast robot, just so you will draw less current per motor, and have more torque over all. Output the 2 motor drive train while having the higher speed.

Yes, speed is important this year, even more so than last year, but be realistic about it. You won't be able to track the line at 20 ft per second and not get off track... And you won't be going anywhere when enemy robot is right in front of you pinning.

Transmission will be just as important this year too. Don't say you aren't warned.

galewind
01-22-2003, 07:04 AM
Sometimes, speed is a factor that is overrated.

It all depends on your goal.

:D

JLambert
01-22-2003, 01:55 PM
Our team was initially shooting for about 15 - 20 feet per second. We've since opted to cut that down a bit, since we don't have a Jedi piloting our controls.

DLyons
01-22-2003, 06:48 PM
I can't wait to see some of the collisions at the top of the ramp:)

Frank(Aflak)
01-22-2003, 06:50 PM
We got some better wheels. We can gear it to run 3-4 feet per second with 4 motors and not slip.

We think it will be better, although We will miss not being able to fly over the ramp daredevil style.

OneAngryDaisy
01-22-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Frank(Aflak)
We got some better wheels. We can gear it to run 3-4 feet per second with 4 motors and not slip.

We think it will be better, although We will miss not being able to fly over the ramp daredevil style.

And what happens when you land right on the top of another robot? Will you be trapped? Will you wreck their robot?


I'm not dissing you, just wanted to point out some scenarios that could happen- but if it does happen, you better catch it on video

Jim Giacchi
01-22-2003, 08:45 PM
Everyone seems to be worried about the collisions on the top of the ramp. I say don't worry! The containers crushing and shattering into a million pieces when two robots hit it from both sides withh be MORE than enough of a cushion :-)

Man, i hope they bring extras.

Spikey
01-22-2003, 10:06 PM
Well not to brag, but our last years robot could cross the field turn around and come back in 10 seconds. We hit 10.4 FPS at the brunswick eruption with our 2 speed tranny and won the speed contest, one problem we could not hit full speed because the playing field is too short. On an open 100 feet of space we hit 15 FPS finishing the length in 6.6 seconds.

I can't wait to see the chaos that will ensue at the regionals, two words CRUNCH CRUNCH:ahh:

soezgg
01-22-2003, 10:44 PM
well, again like last year our team wasnt all that fast, 7fps in high gear.

in the canadian regional, there was one match in specific, where team 188 (props you guys were awesome) ran out crazy fast and got both goals. they must have been going at least 10 fps

but for some reason our robot grabbed their robot and 2 goals and pushed it ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE FIELD.

sure, they had the 2 goals in winning positions in the first 15 sec.

that didnt matter at all, we dominated that match..


will it be similar this year? yes.


sure they may get to the ramp first, up onto it first, but there is plenty of time to turn their lead around. 2 minutes is practically a life time.

JVN
01-23-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by Spikey

we could not hit full speed because the playing field is too short. On an open 100 feet of space we hit 15 FPS finishing the length in 6.6 seconds.


Translation:
This bot was geared too high.
It's acceleration wasn't high enough.
It had plenty of speed, but it could never reach it.
They should have geared for a more attainable top speed.

Learn from this! If you can never REACH your top speed, why bother gearing the bot that high? Your only wasting motor torque. Remember folks, as you gear your bot higher, you lose output torque and acceleration...

JVN
01-23-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by soezgg
well, again like last year our team wasnt all that fast, 7fps in high gear.

in the canadian regional, there was one match in specific, where team 188 (props you guys were awesome) ran out crazy fast and got both goals. they must have been going at least 10 fps

but for some reason our robot grabbed their robot and 2 goals and pushed it ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE FIELD.

sure, they had the 2 goals in winning positions in the first 15 sec.

that didnt matter at all, we dominated that match..


will it be similar this year? yes.


sure they may get to the ramp first, up onto it first, but there is plenty of time to turn their lead around. 2 minutes is practically a life time.

188's drivetrain died in that match.
They had a shifting 2 motor combiner box on each side of their robot. Had their robot been functional, you wouldn't have been able to touch them.

Props to 188 for an AMAZING drive in 2002.

ngreen
01-23-2003, 12:10 AM
We got our full size ramp today. It is awesome. We only have 1/3 of a side done with the actual wire mesh though.

I would love to see a team jump the ramp and land on the wire mesh on the other side. It is bouncy enough that they would probably flip their bot. That would be great.

We're a rookie team and we are using a four wheel drive system using the two drill motors. We are just going for the power right now. We are using 9" pneumatic slick tires, They grip good on the top and the mesh, we haven't got our carpet yet. I'll be happy tommorow when we finish mounting the controls and get our first opportunity to drive over it.

Its like 0 degrees outside right now, I hope we don't have school, more bot building time.

Jeff_Rice
01-23-2003, 01:00 AM
You guys are forgetting update six. If your tires spin during autonomous mode you're disabled until it's driver time. With so much speed, it is quite possible you will spin your wheels on the slick ramp top.

soezgg
01-23-2003, 03:00 PM
188's drivetrain died in that match.

hah. thats probably why their wheels were spinning the whole time right? HAH. i have the match on video, perhaps ill digitize it.

Adam Y.
01-23-2003, 03:53 PM
If your tires spin during autonomous mode you're disabled until it's driver time. With so much speed, it is quite possible you will spin your wheels on the slick ramp top
Actually conservation of momentum would keep the robot going up and over the top of hte ramp until it reaches something that stops it. I get a bad feeling when everyone is expressing their speed in fps when I'm expressing it mph(5 to be exact).:) Eckk with the short wheel base that our robot has this thing will be hell to control.

Gary Dillard
01-23-2003, 04:56 PM
All you guys claiming to go 20 fps.............

If you're on our alliance, don't worry; we'll have enough power to push you up the ramp when your motors stall out.

If you're our opponent, would you prefer that we drive over top of you, or just push you out of the way? Please let us know prior to the start of the match so we can load the appropriate autonomous code.

Any questions about our speed or power - the 2002 finals video is still on the NASA archive, and this year's 2 speed gearbox is the next generation. Stronger, lighter, more power.

'nuf trash talk. See you on the field, boys.:D

Adam Y.
01-23-2003, 05:10 PM
Yeah power isn't really that necessary this year from the way first designed the game and from what they gave us in the kit to make the preassembled gearboxes. Remeber power is useless if you can't use it and all you end up is spinning your wheels.

Kris Verdeyen
01-23-2003, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Jeff_Rice
You guys are forgetting update six. If your tires spin during autonomous mode you're disabled until it's driver time. With so much speed, it is quite possible you will spin your wheels on the slick ramp top.

It's actually the other way around. If the motors are geared for torque, it's more likely that the wheel torque will be higher than the friction force between the wheel and the ground. A motor geared for speed most likely won't have enough torque to spin out any wheel worth having.

OneAngryDaisy
01-23-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Gary Dillard


Any questions about our speed or power - the 2002 finals video is still on the NASA archive, and this year's 2 speed gearbox is the next generation. Stronger, lighter, more power.


That'd be awesome to see the finals- would you have the link to those videos? I checked NASA's website and they didn't seem to have anything recent- thanks

Mike Norton
01-23-2003, 07:04 PM
If you're on our alliance, don't worry; we'll have enough power to push you up the ramp when your motors stall out.


If you're our opponent, would you prefer that we drive over top of you, or just push you out of the way? Please let us know prior to the start of the match so we can load the appropriate autonomous code.


I like they way you think. I can't wait to see you guys again in FL.

We improved the tracks so not to rip any more( to much power for that type of track) . but better yet can you say "Steel" 60 pounds of it.

I hope to see one of those fast robots because we will be waitting at the bottom coming up at them with pure steel. I can't wait to see there face when they hit are arms. Did I say we have just as much power in one arm that most people put into there whole drivetrain.


think about the football player that tries to run pass the defence and then gets a forearm to the head.

I forgot to say center of gravity is only 2 inches off the ground :)

steel is real

hixofthehood
01-23-2003, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Gary Dillard
All you guys claiming to go 20 fps.............

If you're on our alliance, don't worry; we'll have enough power to push you up the ramp when your motors stall out.

If you're our opponent, would you prefer that we drive over top of you, or just push you out of the way? Please let us know prior to the start of the match so we can load the appropriate autonomous code.

Any questions about our speed or power - the 2002 finals video is still on the NASA archive, and this year's 2 speed gearbox is the next generation. Stronger, lighter, more power.

'nuf trash talk. See you on the field, boys.:D

This is the coolest trash talking I've ever heard. Please, no one take it the wrong way...it's all in good fun. Lol. I will find the video link for you in a second.

http://robotics.nasa.gov/archive/webcasts.htm there we go

Gary Dillard
01-23-2003, 10:48 PM
It's absolutely meant in good fun - we know it's going to be fierce again this year and lots of teams will be looking for us. Doesn't matter what we say here, we'll all do our talking on the field.

To all you rookie teams who haven't figured it out - you need to have a robust robot because there will be some serious head banging out there, but noone is out to intentionally damage your robot. We tell our drivers to go all out, but if they break another teams robot they get sent to their pit to help them fix it. We want you to succeed and have fun.

Lauren Hafford
01-26-2003, 01:47 PM
Okay, hotshots! while you are all pushing and shoving and catapulting yourselves, we'll just zip around you all with our nifty thrifty translational 4motor drive system and leave you smelling our burning rubber! When a robot comes rocketing up the ramp at us at full speed (ish) to push us off, we'll just scoot to the side and they'll just rocket right down the other side! Speed and power are nothing when you have maneuverability! MUAHAHAA!
WE WILL DOMINATE!!! (if our drive system works - we haven't built it yet :D )
Oh, heck, this year'll be awesome!!!

lauren

OneAngryDaisy
01-26-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by hixofthehood
This is the coolest trash talking I've ever heard. Please, no one take it the wrong way...it's all in good fun. Lol. I will find the video link for you in a second.

http://robotics.nasa.gov/archive/webcasts.htm there we go

Sweet- I especially loved it when you left your scoring zone with 1 sec left and coasted in your home zone... drools...

what about Kingman- blazing fast! they hit the goals in 2.5 sec!

robomama
01-27-2003, 04:10 PM
you didn't do this alone ;)

sure are gonna miss you guys this year. unless you are coming up to hotlanta??

2002 KSC Regional Champions

Gary Dillard
01-27-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by robomama
you didn't do this alone ;)

sure are gonna miss you guys this year. unless you are coming up to hotlanta??

Yeah - we had some great alliances, no doubt.

The team's not going to Atlanta, but my son is competing with a couple of the Ga Tech sponsored teams, so I'm still debating on coming up anyway.

Didja notice who answered the first MIM Q of the Week - again? I love my "Winner" T-shirt - I hope you're giving out the same thing for this year.

robomama
01-29-2003, 09:53 AM
of course i noticed! we will be sure to have some great prizes again this year.

be sure to stop by if you make it to the peachtree!:D

nick_champ_2
02-12-2003, 10:37 AM
at first we wanted a speedy robot but we found out that the speed we got from the drill motors helps with the power to push the boxes over :p :yikes: :cool: :D