PDA

View Full Version : For all of the teams who didn't pick us......


Tyler Olds
04-25-2003, 01:51 PM
Well after a tough time at nationals, we decided that after the alliance selections (since we didn't get picked) to go out side and see how much our robot can pull.

Here are the 3 different qualities of the 5 min video (the 2 lower quality ones are kinda bad).

2003 Tobor VI Truck Pulling best quality (http://web/Tesla/first/video/Truck%20Pull.mpg) (221 Mb)

2003 Tobor VI Truck Pulling, Windows Media format. (http://web/tesla/first/videos.html) (10.6 Mb)

2003 Tobor VI Truck Pulling, Windows Real format. (http://web/Tesla/first/video/Truck%20Pull.rm) (13.4 Mb)

P.S. The the trailer and the F250 weigh over 7000 lbs!!!

Jnadke
04-25-2003, 02:07 PM
Wow... impressive... you overcame static friction.

Torque is a function of rotational mass and acceleration. Just as long as you don't exceed 40 Amps, it's just a matter of finding a balance between momentum and top speed. When you find that balance, you can pull just about anything with wheels on it.


Every year I see teams asking, "Why didn't we get picked." They try blaming someone else by making it sound as if it's the responsibility of other teams to pick them, when in reality it is their own fault. I feel no sympathy for any team that does this. You should not rely on other teams to pick you. That is the purpose of seeding. The reality is that you seeded 65th out of 73. This could mean several things, including:
1) Your robot wasn't built for the game and/or broke.
2) You had a bad (inexperienced) driver
3) You had a bad (inexperienced) strategist
4) You didn't sell yourself well enough

http://www.aasd.k12.wi.us/tesla/first/videos.html
The real link for the videos.

Gadget470
04-25-2003, 03:03 PM
Jnadke:

Placement doesn't always represent robot or team quality. Perfect example is my team this year. At regionals, we had a few poor alliances but our good ones were great. We ended up placing 15th at GLR, and were not picked. We qualified for nationals on Leadership in Control. Every match there had some kind of problem. All but one match (when we were intentionally flipped and our breaker box came loose when we self-righted) we were on top of the hill. We shoved our way to the top against some of the toughest competitors, while our alliances jumped off the top at the last second.

We lost most matches by under 25 points, I think only one loss was more than 25. We ended up placing 48th I think and again were not picked. We were a powerhouse of torque and traction but never saw an elimination match.

Maybe it was not selling ourselves enough, who knows.


As for the overcoming static friction, that is a great feat with such a large amount of weight. Not every robot could pull the truck and trailer, especially on an obscure surface that the bot wasn't designed for. I'm glad we never had a pushing match with 93, don't know whom would have won.

Being picked for an alliance isn't the most important thing in FIRST though, I really realized that this year. (Last year, at all 3 regionals my old team was in elims, twice picked, once picking). I learned a lot this year and had a great time in the 15 matches I was operator for.

I made a lot of sacrifices for what on the outside looks like little reward this year. To Tyler, and other non-elimination round teams/people: I hope you enjoyed the competition and aren't truly sad that you did not compete in eliminations. FIRST has a lot to offer if you want it. Don't just focus on the competition itself, thats one of the smallest peices of the FIRST puzzle

Mike Schroeder
04-25-2003, 03:55 PM
yes in this competition i have learned that rank doesnt mean much, very rarely do you see the #1 seed win anything

for example in 2000 we were 272 at the end of qual. rounds saturday. but yet we were still picked, and we won,

this year, we had many poor alliances at nationals this year, and yes we still came up on top. so please, this is somthing my team does, and is a suggestion i make to every other team, do not focus on ranks, ranking means verylittle, Strategy is Key, if you see a low ranked robot with alot of ability and you are "ranked" take a chance, you will be suprised how the under doges just tend to be the dark horse and win it all

dez250
04-25-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by "Big Mike"
yes in this competition i have learned that rank doesnt mean much, very rarely do you see the #1 seed win anything

for example in 2000 we were 272 at the end of qual. rounds saturday. but yet we were still picked, and we won,

this year, we had many poor alliances at nationals this year, and yes we still came up on top. so please, this is somthing my team does, and is a suggestion i make to every other team, do not focus on ranks, ranking means verylittle, Strategy is Key, if you see a low ranked robot with alot of ability and you are "ranked" take a chance, you will be suprised how the under doges just tend to be the dark horse and win it all

I cant agree more with big mike there, rank doesnt always mean you are the best or worst, sometimes its just a robot that cant do anythign gets put in an alliance with all good teams wins each match and goes to the top rankings but still they are a robot that cant do anything and wont get far unless with people that can support them.

~Mike

AlbertW
04-25-2003, 04:25 PM
At SVR we had lots of problems. Our AI kept failing, we got flipped alot, etc. We ended up seeded 27th out of 46 after winning every other match the first day, and then losing one and winning 2 the second day. our QPs were really low.

We ended up drafting some colorful flyers that explained our bot, our AI, and our strategy in general, and handed them out to the teams, we cheered really loud, and generally made ourselves known.

We ended up being chosen cause (i think) we sold ourselves pretty well.

Steve W
04-25-2003, 04:34 PM
Team 188 will attest to that. Our team was ranked 22 / 45 at West Michigan but we were picked 3rd on abilities. We won there. At championships we were ranked 52 and were the 4th team picked. We lost in the quarterfinals due to a refs call (not complaining). We always believe that if we do things well and and consistantly people will notice and if we compliment the alliance we would be chosen. Good teams scout well and can see what others do. You can be the best robot but if you don't fit into other teams stategy you won't be picked. There are alot of teams that do really well and don't get picked. Remember that doing something well is a reward in itself. When I saw our robot perform and come in with low rankings I was proud of what we had accomplished. Being picked just added decorations on a fantastic cake. I am just a rookie mentor but I was extremely proud of our team and their accomplishments this year. We started out very rough but have improved as time went on. I am really looking forward to continued growth and enthusiasm next year. Win or lose the match, with a good attitude you are always a winner.

dez250
04-25-2003, 04:44 PM
see ranking isnt everything!

~Mike

DougHogg
04-25-2003, 04:44 PM
I like the way Battlecry@WPI is run. (I heard about it in Houston.)

They have 36 teams in the competition, and the 12 leaders pick one team each.

The remaining 12 teams are drawn by lottery.

Everyone goes into the elimination rounds.

Ryan Dognaux
04-25-2003, 05:09 PM
Woa Tyler your robot is crazy.. that's pretty cool pulling a car and truck like that...

We were ranked like.. 20 something at VCU this year and were drafted.. so it doesn't really mean a whole lot. It's the robot that sells your team, not your rank. If your robot goes out there and consistantly performs well.. then you have a good chance of being picked. However this isn't always the case...I'm sure some teams pick based purly on rank.. even though that's an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Jeff Waegelin
04-25-2003, 05:31 PM
My team has never had any qualms with picking lower-ranked teams. We've been in that spot before, so we always try to make the best evaluation of all the teams. We don't care where a team is seeded, so long as they bring something valuable to the alliance.

Brant Bowen
04-25-2003, 05:35 PM
Sorry to interupt your converstaions about drafting, but could i get some information on Appleton's robot. Like what motors did you guy's drive with and what were you gear ratios? Also have you guys tested your torque at all?

Tyler Olds
04-26-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Jnadke
Wow... impressive... you overcame static friction.

Torque is a function of rotational mass and acceleration. Just as long as you don't exceed 40 Amps, it's just a matter of finding a balance between momentum and top speed. When you find that balance, you can pull just about anything with wheels on it.


Every year I see teams asking, "Why didn't we get picked." They try blaming someone else by making it sound as if it's the responsibility of other teams to pick them, when in reality it is their own fault. I feel no sympathy for any team that does this. You should not rely on other teams to pick you. That is the purpose of seeding. The reality is that you seeded 65th out of 73. This could mean several things, including:
1) Your robot wasn't built for the game and/or broke.
2) You had a bad (inexperienced) driver
3) You had a bad (inexperienced) strategist
4) You didn't sell yourself well enough

http://www.aasd.k12.wi.us/tesla/first/videos.html
The real link for the videos.

For a former person on our team , i would't think that you would really degrade us as much as this post seems here. Also I do not think you fully know what you are talking about with the qualifying stuff, we had a good driver, we sold our selves to the level that we could, our bot was built for the game and broke once at the championship because a chair fell off, and our strategist people (one of the two is me) has done strategy for 3 years now and is pretty attuned to it. Perhaps if our graduates taught their predecessors more of their skills, our bot would have done better under your theory.

Tyler Olds
04-26-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Brant Bowen
Sorry to interupt your converstaions about drafting, but could i get some information on Appleton's robot. Like what motors did you guy's drive with and what were you gear ratios? Also have you guys tested your torque at all?

I will leave this to somebody else to answer, but i can tell you that we used two chips on a tranny with a tank style drive train, i think our gear ratios were 48:1 and 12:1 however I will ask other members of my team about that.

Tyler Olds
04-26-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin
My team has never had any qualms with picking lower-ranked teams. We've been in that spot before, so we always try to make the best evaluation of all the teams. We don't care where a team is seeded, so long as they bring something valuable to the alliance.

/me think back to 2002 at regionals and somewhat nationals (what a good year it was eh Jeff?

btw I know i posted 3 times which is spamming however somebody posted while i was writing one of them so oh well.

Also thank you Ryan for the compliment.

xavior06
04-26-2003, 08:29 AM
yea, we didnt get picked either.. we're still trying to figure out why... =/..

we were 13th in archimedes and undefeated throughout all of our national matches.

i dont think any of the top 8 teams knew who we were, partially due to FIRST's "random" matches, we never really got to play with almost any of them :mad:


o well, next year, i guess we will have to sell our bot like noones business, just like all those singing teams and those annoying beggers.

Kyle Fenton
04-26-2003, 12:09 PM
This year was unique in the terms that there were a lot of good teams, and it was very difficult to decide who to choose. Since Stacking was not effective this year (especially in the finals), therefore there were no unique features that one teams was singling out. Really all you needed was a fast, strong, drive train, good auto program, can go under the bar, and something to knock the boxes around. Those teams like 25, 16, 494, 79, 308, 188, 103, 121, 126 and many more got picked first. After they were picked you had to choose other teams that had many similar characteristics. Ultimately it made of come down to who they like the best, or who they can get along with.

Even the #1 seed in Curie (343) said before they picked 25, that is was difficult choice, because there were so many good teams.

Ashley Weed
04-26-2003, 01:40 PM
pfft.. we found out all too well this year about seeding meaning nothing. I have drove in 8 competitions, and the first 6 we were always a seeded team. It was great we just picked teams to go with us, and we were a powerhouse, so it didn't matter. This year, at MidAtlantics, we put our drive train together on Thursday, and worked the kinks out of our arm, and finally began running, we had some bad luck with the stupid 40 amp breakers, but finally overcame. We were picked by the #4 seed while we were the #32 seed out of like 43 teams. However, at the Championship Event, we were seeded in the top ten on Friday and Saturday, until our last match. Our last match we had a poor alliance, and for the first time all season our transmission went, we quickly replaced it, and went for alliance selections, to find that we were bumped down to 14 due to the last match. We were not picked, and many people came and talked to us afterwards saying they couldn't believe no one picked us. We were completely unique with the 108" Autonomous Stack Slapper.

Jnadke
04-26-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Tyler Olds
For a former person on our team , i would't think that you would really degrade us as much as this post seems here. Also I do not think you fully know what you are talking about with the qualifying stuff, we had a good driver, we sold our selves to the level that we could, our bot was built for the game and broke once at the championship because a chair fell off, and our strategist people (one of the two is me) has done strategy for 3 years now and is pretty attuned to it. Perhaps if our graduates taught their predecessors more of their skills, our bot would have done better under your theory.

I did not mean any disrespect to the team...

This post sounded as if you are demanding an explanation as to why you were not picked by naming the topic, "For all of the teams who didn't pick us......" You could have very easily named the topic something like "Towing 3 tons with our robot", but instead you chose the above. Perhaps if you had named the post anything else, I probabaly would have posted a compliment, but since you "demanded" an explanation, I gave you one.

Ashley Weed
04-26-2003, 02:04 PM
sorry to get into it... but yeah, I sorta 'wonder' why we weren't picked and other teams who are in a similar situation. I would just like to know from a few Galileo teams why they overlooked us. It could help is in post-season to improve qualities.

Cory
04-26-2003, 02:31 PM
The reason I think lots of good teams dont get picked for finals is not getting your name out there enough. Not just at competitions, but here on CD as well. Last year at nationals we were seeded 5-12 the entire time in Einstein. Our last match we lost to 16 and they got huge points (We would have been seeded first or second if we won), so we dropped back to T-11. We thought we were a sure pick... we had been told we were by another team, but thats a different story... well it turned out that we were not picked, and it wasnt a huge deal because we came into SVR that year with a non working robot. The reason we werent picked is because noone knew us. We werent distributing flyers, we werent walking around and approaching teams. Basically, we sat in our pits waiting for someone to either approach us, or just pick us.

Moral: be proactive, dont wait for people to come to you, go to them, constantly sell your robot to anyone who stops at your pits, or teams that you think your robot would compliment well.

Cory

Ashley Weed
04-26-2003, 03:15 PM
I should of included with my previous post... I have spent many late nights over the past two years developing one of the most extensive databases on other teams. If you ever have a conversation with me, you will be frightened by how much I know about other teams ... [no comments from the peanut gallery - *evulish*].

...anyways... we have this extensive database... we are well known through many years with teams... EVERYONE knows of Chuck Pi in 1999.. "Up Chuck!", and after lasts years enormous success, people know who Chuck is. We have a great system for selling ourselves too, and getting that information out. That's why it is so hard to understand why we were overlooked.

*Galileo top 8.... please give me some input!*

Jnadke
04-26-2003, 03:24 PM
sorry to get into it... but yeah, I sorta 'wonder' why we weren't picked and other teams who are in a similar situation. I would just like to know from a few Galileo teams why they overlooked us. It could help is in post-season to improve qualities.

Originally posted by Cory
Moral: be proactive, dont wait for people to come to you, go to them, constantly sell your robot to anyone who stops at your pits, or teams that you think your robot would compliment well.

Cory


Part of this is selling yourself properly. It's pertinent not only to be honest with teams as to what your robot can do, but to tell them why these features would complement their robots features. Whether you can do something they can't, or you can work together nicely at a good task. Most likely a lot of teams had 93 on their potential picking list, just like we had a lot of teams on ours last year. The one's that got picked where the teams that convinced them their robot would work best with them.

One thing I noticed about 93's current year's robot is that the transmission was the best thing they had going for them. I didn't really notice any wings (correct me if I'm wrong) on the robot or any other special features. I don't mean any disrespect, but if I were a picking team, these lack of features would probabaly bump them to a 2nd round pick. I'm not being mean, I'm being realistic. Couple that with a lack of selling yourself (you could have sold yourself as a powerful robot that can be an asset in descoring strategies for use in the 2nd match after you win the 1st). If you could convince them that you can out-push robots to take down their stacks, I'm sure people would have picked you.

FIRST isn't just about engineering, it also teaches you salesmanship and communication skills. Just like in designing your robot, you have to present your ideas and also convince people why they are the best. If you can't do this effectively, it's much harder to succeed in life. Think about applying for a job. You are trying to sell yourself to a business and convince them that you are the best person for a job. Don't tell me that salesmanship skills aren't an aspect in real life.

Performing well helps you to get picked, but even if you do bad, you still have a chance. You just have to work harder at selling yourself to make up for the poor performance.

And, no, walking up to a team and begging them to "pick us" does not work. A few teams came up to me at MMR last year in the pits and tried this. I just said "I'll see what I can do" and they walked away. I promptly threw their flyers in the trash.

Andy Baker
04-26-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by weedie
*Galileo top 8.... please give me some input!*

OK. We seeded 3rd. You do deserve an explaination.

We had a long list of teams to pick, and there were many good teams in Galileo. The teams who were toward the top of our list were teams whose robots were good compliments to ours.

We had a good auto-mode, and so did our first pick (217)... so what we really needed as a second pick was a "scat-bot", which was quick and could get around the field effortlessly. We picked 359 for these qualities.

Team 84 has a great robot. They have a good flailing arm that is coupled with a unique ability to "limbo". Their drivetrain is strong and powerful. The only thing that 84 did not have that we wanted in a parter was the "scat" ability to quickly move around the field to push totes and de-score our opponents, if needed.

It was disappointing to see a fine team like 84 not get picked.

Andy B.

tenfour
04-26-2003, 04:21 PM
Jnadke,

You should treat people nicer. Your negative demeanor seems to cast a dark shadow over many posts here.

You seem to knock all other robots. Where is yours. I'd love to play to play it with.

OneAngryDaisy
04-26-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by weedie
sorry to get into it... but yeah, I sorta 'wonder' why we weren't picked and other teams who are in a similar situation. I would just like to know from a few Galileo teams why they overlooked us. It could help is in post-season to improve qualities.

You guys were on our list, but we amazingly got our top two picks.. 236 and 175 had both won a regional together and competed against eachother in the finals for another regional, so they were our # 1 and 2 picks.. I'm sure you guys will be picked high in many other offseason competitions-

Chris Nowak
04-26-2003, 05:46 PM
Yeah, even if you are 10th seed or something it doesnt ever mean you are a sure pick, especially at nats. I dont even know if we would have been picked if we had dropped out of the top 8, and we were #1 seed. At midwest, we were picked in the second round, but that was only out of 50 some teams.

As far as why we didnt pick any of you, it was mainly because we had worked out a strategy and we knew exactly what would work with us well. Who we pick is determined by a ton of different factors. However, we depended the least on how a team sold themselves, and we pretty much judged purely on performance. We had a really sweet alliance in the finals, with 68 and 9. Did any of you guys see our second round in the quarterfinals? 68 gets up the ramp in about 3-5 seconds and meets the other teams on top, preventing bins from getting knocked into their zone but not really knocking any bins into ours. Then, team 9, who has a slower autonomous mode, comes up right behind and pushes team 68 squarely in the back, which ends up pushing all of the bins into our side. This kind of strategy and fluid teamwork is what we needed for finals, and most other robots couldnt have fulfilled this type of thing.

Also, there were teams who were not on our pick list because we did not enjoy working with them. It is a major plus to be a good team to work with, because the team I didnt really enjoy working with pretty much wanted to do everything on their own, and even though we may have been better suited for a job, they would tell us to move and they would do it themselves. So, this is also a major factor.

Sorry, 84, but I honestly cant remember much about your robot even though we were pit neighbors, so I cant really tell you anything specific about why we didnt consider you very closely. Did you have an arm that tryed to knock over the boxes kind of like beatty at the beginning? Nearing the end, we didnt end up liking the idea of arm bots in general, because it is our opinion that they are easily defeatable and are not as versatile as other robots. Our picks, 68 and 9, were fast, had good traction, and had what we needed during the 2nd round: ultimate sweeping power.

Selling yourself did not count at all for us, because unfortunately we couldnt trust everything people said about their robots. For example, I dont think I ever heard a team say that they had anything less that superb traction, but obviously not everyone did. So, If you want to sell yourself, you have to do it on the field. However, we have no qualms about picking a lower team because we understand that not everyone has the same luck in their pairings. Its not the end score that we cared about, it was just how you did during the round. 236 was seeded kind of low, but they were second on our list because we saw them as an insanely good robot that had some bad breaks.

eko7385
04-26-2003, 07:29 PM
We were semi-finalists in Cleveland, Winners of Great Lakes and seeded 15th in Archimedes division.

Part of the reason we didn't get picked is we did not sell ourselves well enough. we did distribute fliers and tried to talk to all teams seeded in the top 20 or so, but I guess we did not talk enough

Another problem was that our matches were not with any big name top seeded teams. meaning they weren't necessarily watching us on the field

Third problem was, since by winning GLR we only had three weeks to make travel plans, we were not able to ship our second module, wings that could fir under the bar.

We also just had bad luck in a couple of our matches of our matches. One of them our robot decided to turn itself off after autonomous mode, Another was just two evenly matched alliances were the score came out low for both sides. That was also the match where we tipped over for the first time all year, but we were pushed to over 45 degrees above the horizontal before we fell over.

Even though it was depressing we still had a fun trip and successful season.

Jnadke
04-28-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by tenfour
You should treat people nicer. Your negative demeanor seems to cast a dark shadow over many posts here.

You seem to knock all other robots. Where is yours. I'd love to play to play it with.

I wasn't knocking their robot, I was knocking his condescending attitude toward the teams that didn't pick him. His post, conveniently titled "For all of the teams who didn't pick us......", seems to imply that they think of themselves as better than all the other selecting teams.

This attitude should not be tolerated. In FIRST, nobody is smarter or better than anyone else. Everyone has their own capacity to be great, it is up to them to utilize that capacity. We are all equals.

I also see people looking at posts on these boards and seeing "what they want to hear" instead of what was actually said. I never once said they had a bad driver, they had a bad strategist, or their robot wasn't built for the game. I generalized the statement to all teams by saying the poor performance could be due to those things. Could is the key word.

Matt Attallah
04-28-2003, 08:04 AM
Wow. I don't know if anyone else has stopped and read this thread, but it sounds like that some people are becomming nasty. We didn't get chosen at Great Lakes or Nationals, but I feel that that doesn't matter to me. It's the experience that FIRST gives us. After meeting Woodie and Dean, I swear, I was happiest at that moment in all the past moments in FIRST. After four years, I finally got to talk to them! Plus, imagine all the people you have meet/will meet in the future. Remember, FIRST is not about winning. Sure, winning is nice and it has some benefits, but it's not the world. When team 5 didn't get chosen in Great Lakes or Nats, I was shocked, but there where some downfalls that I thought of when I thought long and hard. Not everyone can be/will be picked. FIRST was meant for people, and robot just bring us all together.

I'm very shocked to see this thread get like this. Please, think before you post. I realize that some teams want to know why, and that is fine, but send them a PM. In a few of these posts, it is kinda nasty by FIRST standards.

Please, please be nice. FIRST is about the fun you have during the on/off season, not about winning. Remember, FIRST is made by people, for people.

camtunkpa
04-28-2003, 11:28 AM
The picking is not fair, but you know what, right from day one Woodie and Dean expressed this game will not be fair. FIRST is not only teaching about robotics, they are teaching about life. there are so many things that aren't fair. I know from watching so many greart teams not getting picked. I know I've been frustrated myself with not getting picked back in 2000. I agree with all teams that picking doesn't necessarily do your machine and team justice, but it's just another element of the game. Good luck to all at the Mini's and c-yall next season......try to keep the cut-throat posts to a minimum, it gives FIRST a bad name.

David.Cook
04-28-2003, 02:32 PM
I can understand how not getting picked can be.

We were incredibly lucky to be in the elimination rounds for both our regional events (VCU and Chesapeake) and in Archimedes division. We picked our alliance at VCU and were picked by the #1 seed at Chesapeake.

Here is the odd one... at Naitionals we were in 9th place. Our best match (no surprise here) was when we were teamed with WildStang. We had the 6th largest QP at all of nationals (all fields). It was also Wildstang's best match score. Needless to say, we would have been happy to have partnered with WildStang, but they picked the #8 seed instead. Clearly they made a good choice.

My take-away from all this is that the marketing of your team to other teams is vital to the process. It isn't the only thing, but it can't be ignored unless you are certain you will be in the top 8.

Plan ahead for how you will promote your robot and it's capabilities and your team to other teams.

D.J. Fluck
04-28-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by David.Cook
Here is the odd one... at Naitionals we were in 9th place. Our best match (no surprise here) was when we were teamed with WildStang. We had the 6th largest QP at all of nationals (all fields). It was also Wildstang's best match score. Needless to say, we would have been happy to have partnered with WildStang, but they picked the #8 seed instead. Clearly they made a good choice.


Personal relationships between teams have a lot to do with tie breakers in selecting a team to pick. I know Wildstang works that way and so do we. Also being from the same area helps, you are more familiar with how the team works.

Jeff Waegelin
04-28-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by D.J. Fluck
Personal relationships between teams have a lot to do with tie breakers in selecting a team to pick. I know Wildstang works that way and so do we. Also being from the same area helps, you are more familiar with how the team works.

I second that. We based our decisions greatly on who we were familiar with. The top picks on our list were people we'd played with before, and were from our area. Since we'd seen some of them at several different regionals, we were familiar with their capabilities. That's why we picked 47 in the finals. They're a local team, we'd played with them earlier in the weekend, and we liked their team members. Sure, there are others we could've picked, but reasons like that brought them to the top of our list.

ellenchisa
04-28-2003, 04:10 PM
Yeah...as a member of the team wildstang chose we were thrilled (I think we were seeded 7th, not 8th by the way) ... I don't exactly remember how your autonomous mode was, but I know wildstang liked ours. We never had a chance to play with them before that, but had seen them at the Great Lakes Regional...

Let's see...as the teams who didn't get chosen. I noticed this a lot in our team, we were scared of picking a tall alliance even if they hadn't tipped before, just because of the possibility. That could have been part of the reason tall bots (such as 226) didn't get picked. Just a thought...

Still, on the original topic, the videos were very impressive =)

Jnadke
04-29-2003, 07:00 PM
I apologize if I did come off sounding harsh in my initial post.

Really, I do think it is very cool that the robot could pull that much... What I didn't really like was how the title implied that this thread was targeted solely at the teams that did pick you guys... kinda like a "we're better than you" attitude... That's what I didn't like... If I were still on the team I wouldn't want us associated with a "better than you" attitude. I don't want a bad rep to form about the team, I still care about it. Sorry that I came off a bit harsh.

Tyler Olds
04-29-2003, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Jnadke
I apolligize if I did come off sounding harsh in my initial post.

Really, I do think it is very cool that the robot could pull that much... What I didn't really like was how the title implied that this thread was targeted solely at the teams that did pick you guys...

The title of this post was ment to be an attention getter nothing else. Personally I do not think that anybody else but you Jeremy, took it that way.

kinda like a "we're better than you" attitude... That's what I didn't like... If I were still on the team I wouldn't want us associated with a "better than you" attitude. I don't want a bad rep to form about the team, I still care about it. Sorry that I came off a bit harsh.

Personally I think your giving our team much more of a bad rep than what I am, as other people have posted in such a manner.

Hey Jeremy, ever hear do the saying "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all?" or did your mother forget to teach you that? So yes you did sound harsh in your initial post, and yes I did take offense to it.

Jnadke
04-29-2003, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Tyler Olds
The title of this post was ment to be an attention getter nothing else.

...


You could have left it at that. I gave you an apology.


I will not lower myself to personal insults. If you look back at the posts, I have never personally attacked you. You may have interpreted it as that, but my posts were generalized.

If you wish to conduct yourself in such an uncivilized manner, then so be it. Everyone has their own opinions. That's what makes up a discussion. When personal insults come into play, it is no longer a discussion.

Next time you wish to insult me, PM me.

Jeff Waegelin
04-29-2003, 09:32 PM
Guys... cool it... let's just drop it. Don't turn this thread into (yet another) argument.

Ken Leung
04-29-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin
Guys... cool it... let's just drop it. Don't turn this thread into (yet another) argument.

Yup. The original topic of this thread is about the 93 robot, and the process of picking partners in the finals for the FIRST robotics competition. If you guys aren't willing to touch on those topics and instead comment on each other's comments, then you can make use of other ways, such as PM system, e-mail, phone, AIM, etc.

This thread is a good thread, if you guys are willing to step back a little bit, and let other have some room to say what they think about the picking process post their thoughts. Otherwise this discussion is just a waste of everyone's time. I would like to see the "insults" stop at once.


Mean while, just like a lot of people saying, the picking process depends on a lot of luck, and lots of work at the competition. Since you don't get to play with every team, teams are most likely going to pick teams they played with who did really well. That's one of the easiest way to select teams you want to choose.

Then Scouting is a big part of it too. Teams with organized scout team usually know what robots are good out there. Because they are people too, they will tend to recommend teams they know, or they saw in a really good match. Teams with good scouting teams never use advertisements from other teams to choose the robot as much as their data.

Then after that there is a lot of PR work. Teams tends to choose their friends, and people they have a clear memory of.

When the team rep go up the field, they have a sheet with them, and a list of teams. When that list runs out, the team rep are pressured to choose on the field without knowing who's good and who isn't, then they choose base on their impression on the teams.

So, that's what an organized team would do, for people who don't usually work with that part of the competition.

This year is paticularly hard because robots doesn't have any special components that could do something cool, other than stacking bins (and they turns out to be not very effective). The rest of the things to look for is drive system, drivers' skills, and match results. So, basically all the teams have a fairly equal chance to get picked, if they have a decent drive train that moves well.

So, if you didn't get picked... Don't think too much about it. All you can do is do your best work on the robot, do the best at the competition, try to seed high, and hope for the best. As long as you did that, you have nothing to regret about. This is especially true at the Championship event, with only 8 alliances get to play in finals in a division of 80 teams. That's about 30% of teams who get to advance, which is very harsh.

It is frustrating to all the teams who don't get to play, not just your team. At the end, I hope you had fun at the competition as much as every of those teams did. Because at the end, it wouldn't matter at much how much you win, because it will always be an experience remaining in your mind, and it's up to you to choose how you want to remember the experience. You can choose to feel bad about it, or remember the best part only.

Hopefully 20 years later when you think about this, you will think "oh yeah, that was lots of fun!"...

Jnadke
04-29-2003, 10:43 PM
To turn this back into a productive thread...


Thread on Truck Pulling (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16683) more importantly here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=124412#post124412).

Perhaps there should be a Truck Pulling competition at IRI? Fastest time out of 3 to pull a truck 100 feet wins?

Soukup
04-30-2003, 07:37 AM
here's a little bit of info that I'm sure you all can use. Your robots aren't bad, that's not why we don't pick you. It's that your robot doesn't work with the strategy we want. here's an example.

At the Championship we were #1 in Galileo after about our 3rd match and I don't think that we ever dropped out of first. WE knew by about 3:30 on friday that we'd be picking the next day. So did a lot of other teams. For those of you that have never been in a high-ranking position, it's fun but it is tough. We had about 1 team every five minutes approaching us about being picked. We gave everyone adequete time to sell their robot to us and then made no promises. This was only on friday. On saturday, all of our alliance partners that we were paired with visted us, saying how great we worked together, as well as every robot, even a couple in the top 8. When you are in a position to pick any robot that you want, it's tough, because you have to hope you make the right choice. I know that there were some good teams that we didn't pick, but it's not your fault. I believe that we had our first choice in the first round and our 1st or second choice in the 2nd round. Were there robots that we overlooked, yes. Are we happy with the choices we made, yes.

SO just remember, teams that are in a position to pick have to make didfficult choices. Sometimes because of poor scouting, or underestimating a robot's abilities, we forget a robot that shouldn't have been forgotten. And for team that say, we can pull 1000 lbs and have this much torque and this much speed and can do everything that you want us to, just remember it's what you do in your matches that count. Hope that some of you can understand the position that the top 8 seeds are in, it's a tough choice, and we're only trying to do what we can to win.

petek
04-30-2003, 09:15 AM
While experience is one of the primary factors, for Cybersonics scouting plays a critical role in how we select alliance partners. At every event we divide up all the teams and assign scouts to cover them (usually 3 or 4 teams/scout). Each scout has the responsibility to interview their teams early on to determine their advertised capabilities and to keep track of their robot and driver performance, problems, and how they work with others throughout the event. We also have scouts who watch every match to keep track of autonomous performance, who can push whom, etc.

We also have our mentors and more experienced students try to keep track of all teams to start with and as the event progresses they focus on the top performing teams. That doesn't necessarily mean just the top seeds, because as many have noted, there are always some very good teams who get mired in low seeds because of luck, poor alliances, etc.

As one of these mentors, I can say that key traits I look for, besides their performance on the field, are how the team works together and their "gracious professionalism". For example, does the whole team pull together all the time, or are the drivers in their own world and the rest of the team off socializing?

All of this info is reported in a scouting meeting at the end of each day. This meeting is also a chance for everyone to comment on teams who caught their eye, who were not their responsibility. This human based scouting system has worked well for us, and was especially effective this year. It really helped us identify strong performances from some teams who were new to us, and to note usually strong teams who were struggling.

For example, at Annapolis, team 614 showed some really good work in their qualification matches (our chief scout dubbed them "spunky"). I and others talked to them in their pits and though some of them were pretty worried about poor scores, they never blamed their alliance partners for their results and kept giving it their best.

Even though I don't think we had worked with them before Annapolis and they seeded out of the top 20, we recommended 614 to team 25 and were picked as our partner for the finals. They did a great job and with 25 almost made up for our robot failure in the semis. You can be sure they will be on our list of known strong teams now.

One last point if I may, is that last minute advertising by teams who haven't made and effort up until then has no bearing on our decision making. The time to make alliances is all through practice and qualifiying - not just when you know who the top 8 are.