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AJ Quick
11-16-2003, 07:45 PM
Our team is in need of a battery (or two) and a quick charger. Ours were taken from us by our sponsor (including our last robot), and now we need some to demonstrate our old robot. They do not have to be legal, and can be old.. please help our team out!

Thank You.
Hopkins High School Robotics (used to be the CogSquad)

GregTheGreat
11-16-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by AJ Quick
Our team is in need of a battery (or two) and a quick charger. Ours were taken from us by our sponsor (including our last robot), and now we need some to demonstrate our old robot. They do not have to be legal, and can be old.. please help our team out!

Thank You.
Hopkins High School Robotics (used to be the CogSquad)

Check your local directory or Internet for the nearest Exide distributor to you. Their part number for the battery is ES18-12.

I know that there is a place in Chicago that has the batteries. A motor-cycle shop might have them, they should at least be able to order them.

About the charger, a local Menard's, Lowe's, or Home Depot should have them. I know Menard's had the same charger we used this year on 71.

-Greg The Great

KenWittlief
11-16-2003, 08:11 PM
I bought the same style of battery from a website last year to power the running lights on my HobieCat sailboat

I got mine for $48 - cant remember the place I bought it from off the top of my head

if you search on gel-cell or 18AH 12V batteries on the internet, you should be able to find online sales.

If you were a local team we would be happy to give you a pair of our older ones - but something to keep in mind - these batteries have a 3 or 4 year shelf life - so if someone gives you a couple old ones, they might not hold much of a charge.

sanddrag
11-16-2003, 08:14 PM
I could help you with two batteries and a charger but I'm in California. We would need to get them back when you're done. Shipping would be about $15-$20 each way by FedEx Ground which takes 4 business days. Let me know.

So what's this about your sponsor taking your stuff?

Also, you can get battery chargers from auto parts stores and you might be able to find batteries at a motorcycle shop or in a computer UPS if you prefer to buy.
Originally posted by KenWittlief
if you search on gel-cell or 19AH 12V batteries on the internet, you should be able to find online sales. Just as a note most ones the size we use are 17AH. Exide made special ones for us last year which are 18AH. I have never seen 19AH.

sanddrag
11-16-2003, 08:21 PM
Sorry for two posts in a row but I didn't want to edit because I thought you might miss it. So:

I found a place about 45 mins away from you that supposedly sells batteries. You might give them a call.

Complete Sales, Inc.
7475 North 15th Street
Oakdale, MN 55128-5512
comsales@citilink.com
Tel: 651-731-2923
Fax: 651-731-9238

KenWittlief
11-16-2003, 08:24 PM
I found the one I bought for sale on the Yahoo shopping site

Its a Universal Battery UB12180 - $40

search on UB12180 and it pops right up :^)

if you are going to demo your bot, I would get at least one or two new batteries.

UlTiMaTeP
11-16-2003, 09:06 PM
www.allelectronics.com has the exact battery's used at surplus prices, as for charger, go to your autoparts store and pick up a charger from them.

KenWittlief
11-16-2003, 09:19 PM
gotta watch those surplus places for lead acid / gelcell batteries

they have a limited shelf life, whether they are being used or not, around 3 to 4 years.

UlTiMaTeP
11-16-2003, 09:54 PM
too bad those are the exact batterys FIRST uses

(only reason I revealed my secret supplier, was your case sounded quite needy)

KenWittlief
11-16-2003, 09:58 PM
what is the exact battery FIRST uses?!

i searched allelectronics.com and they dont list ANY Exide batterys

?!

I think your secret is still secret :^)

PS - last year FIRST gave us Exide EX18-12 bats - they dont show up anywhere on the web, except on the FIRST site in the team updates.

Sachiel7
11-16-2003, 10:04 PM
Well, we can't help with the battery thing, we're running on one as it is now. But I do have a question for team's who've bought alternate chargers. I've heard teams have gotten charges that charge very fast, and I was curious if anyone could recommend any. Also, will FIRST allow you to use any charger, or just the ones supplied in the latest kit? I thought we could only use the kit chargers. At any rate, it'd still be good for off-season.

sanddrag
11-16-2003, 10:08 PM
Last year you could use any charger as long as it's charge rate is not higher than the kit charger - 6 amps.

Sachiel7
11-17-2003, 12:17 AM
Ah, ok. I don't think we'll worry about a different charger then. But we'll keep in in our minds for later...

UlTiMaTeP
11-17-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by KenWittlief
what is the exact battery FIRST uses?!

i searched allelectronics.com and they dont list ANY Exide batterys

?!

I think your secret is still secret :^)

PS - last year FIRST gave us Exide EX18-12 bats - they dont show up anywhere on the web, except on the FIRST site in the team updates.

actually, ur right they were the ones from 2 years ago, yugosuluvi or somthin (they must have sold all there yugosuluvi's but they have replaced them with almost the same kind)

12volt 17amph, same as 2001

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=160400&item=GC-217&type=store

These batterys are legal for use as of 2003 also
(I had them cleared with FIRST admins)

Although it is 1amph less, you shouldnt see much of a difference, and as for a 2:00 match, it wouldnt make a difference anyways, and wont make any difference for a practice

AJ Quick
11-17-2003, 08:29 AM
I was rather looking for a team and their good graces to offer any thing they may have for free. We don't have a sponsor right now, so money is tight for us. We need them to demonstrate our robot to sponsors, and to show off at Lego league events.

You should recieve a new charger in the kit of parts this year, along with batteries. So if anyone has an extra charger from 2002 (the slow chargers) or before they could give that would be great, same with the batteries.

Any help is appreciated..

Joe Matt
11-17-2003, 08:39 AM
If you don't mind me asking, why the heck did they take your robot? :confused:

UlTiMaTeP
11-17-2003, 08:16 PM
yea, thats just cold, they must be really stuck up not to give you atleast one of the batterys..

AJ Quick
11-17-2003, 09:28 PM
They own the team.. they have everything. We have our 2002 robot still, and are working on that to demonstrate...

Nope they won't give us anything.. and didn't really give us anything when we were sponsored by them.

sanddrag
11-17-2003, 10:16 PM
I say take 'em to court. Did they specifically have a contract that says anything you buy with money from them is property of theirs? I mean, when you sponsor a team it's like giving them a donation to do what they want with it. What's the point of owning everything the team bought because anyone (liek the sponsor) with the money could go buy the stuff without sponsoring a team. You see what I mean? Something just not right about that.

AJ Quick
11-17-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by sanddrag
Did they specifically have a contract that says anything you buy with money from them is property of theirs?

Yes we signed a waiver that said anything produced was theres. Can't really talk about this guys.. or they will take us to court... and you can't win against one of the largest military suppliers in the US. They've got tanks, guns, missiles, and depleated uranium.

Tristan Lall
11-17-2003, 11:11 PM
AJ, I admit to having exactly the same thought as sanddrag. Talk to a lawyer (and there are plenty of lawyers that are willing to "look out for the little guy"), and see if you can get a little time in front of a justice of the peace. With a little luck, or maybe sympathy (and certainly the facts as you've described them), you might get the JP to serve them with an order to give the robot (and whatever other property) back. The lawyer will also be able to advise you as to any leeway in that waiver--maybe there's some sort of back door you can use. (As a hypothetical example: is it possible that a school, as a representative of your school board, cannot provide services or products--like robots--to a corporation without approval from higher-up? If the waiver did not satisfy that condition, because it wasn't signed by a school superintendant, maybe you could have it declared null.) The lawyer can also advise you about small claims court (which exists largely to service disputes such as these).
If you're sure that these options have been exhausted (and I mean exhausted, not overlooked because they could sue you), then you're still not necessarily done for just yet.
I looked into your ex-sponsor a little, and you're right: they're a huge name in the military-aerospace sector. That's an advantage, not a disadvantage: their stash of depleted uranium will not help them in the face of public opinion. Here in Toronto, we have a fellow named Alan Silverman, who works for a major local TV station. He functions as a public ombudsman, reporting on perceived slights against average people--the typical case is a homeowner getting cheated by a general contractor, or a crooked salesman swindling money out of an unsuspecting senior. He does his research, and if he digs up "dirt" on a company or individual that has a pending complaint against them, he takes it to the airwaves. He's highly popular, and regarded as a credible individual, and he's seen frequently by thousands of households. If (and only if) you can honestly say that you have been wronged, consider the fact that your ex-sponsor will squirm at the thought of being branded as "a patron of the school system gone wrong", or some other unflattering title. Even if it weren't on TV, but maybe in the local paper, you might achieve the same result.
Let me backtrack a second though; maybe you don't even have to go public about it (because I'm the first to admit that this can be a messy proposition, and does not guarantee success). Serving them with a court order from a JP will give them that same squirmy feeling inside :o, since you can be sure that they'll be considering their situation if this were to get out into the general public's knowledge.
Another thing: in another thread, I expressed my view that you're a school group, and therefore under the control of the school, if anybody. (Remember the facetious example of the sponsor taking away the school band?) They would be, in effect, exercising control over a school group, from without--which is tantamount to a corporation exercising control over a school activity. If I'm reading this situation correctly, this is absolutely not permissible. Or are we saying that an external organization has the right to determine whether or not a school can organize a particular school group, irrespective of whether or not that organization even contributes to the school?!
The point: if they don't sponsor you, they have no say in the way things are run. You say that FIRST recognizes your school's team as being the CogSquad of yore (renamed, as it happens). That means that the only thing they have over you is this waiver. (So try to get that waiver quashed, or amended, or something.)
And remember, you can talk about anything you want, so long as it is true and civil (the provable truth is considered an airtight defence against accusations of defamation, slander and libel), and provided you are not party to an agreement not to discuss these things. (The waiver can't be a non-disclosure agreement as well--that would be positively ludicrous!)
Of course, I'm not a lawyer--so be sure to talk to a real one (if you haven't already done so).
Good luck.
-Tristan Lall

Andy Baker
11-18-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by AJ Quick
I was rather looking for a team and their good graces to offer any thing they may have for free. We don't have a sponsor right now, so money is tight for us. We need them to demonstrate our robot to sponsors, and to show off at Lego league events.

You should recieve a new charger in the kit of parts this year, along with batteries. So if anyone has an extra charger from 2002 (the slow chargers) or before they could give that would be great, same with the batteries.

Any help is appreciated..

Sorry to respond late... but have you guys gotten a battery and charger yet? If not, I can have a set mailed out today or tomorrow.

Andy B.

Mike371
11-18-2003, 07:47 AM
This may be a little off topic, just to remind the veteran teams, we will NOT be receiving a new charger and battery this year. Something about the cost. Only rookie teams will get a battery.

AJ Quick
11-18-2003, 08:01 AM
I would just like retiterate again that we are not looking for legal help, or trying to fight this. We are only looking for a battery, and a charger.

If you cannot help with that, please do not respond.

Tristan Lall
11-18-2003, 08:18 AM
If you were in the greater Toronto area, I'm sure we could have helped with a battery and charger.
And now, very briefly off-topic: If you are content to roll over and forget about it, that is your prerogative, but you aren't going to get your way just sitting there and moaning every third post how your bad, bad sponsor took everything. Like this: They own the team.. they have everything. We have our 2002 robot still, and are working on that to demonstrate...
Nope they won't give us anything.. and didn't really give us anything when we were sponsored by them. Either do something about it, or let it drop entirely.
(And don't worry, no more amateur legal advice is forthcoming.)

KenWittlief
11-18-2003, 08:40 AM
Its not unusual for sponsor corporations to retain control (possesion) of the teams robot

these are powerful machines (the bots) and without adult supervision someone could be maimed of even killed (60PSI on a 2" pnuematic clyinder puts out 280 pounds of pressure on a 3/8" shaft, a chain drive or gear drive will take your fingers off, an exploding lead acid battery will blind you...)

Having a team sue their previous sponsor would not be in the best interest of the team, or of FIRST in general.

Its possible the sponsor wants to start a new team at a different school, or its may be a matter of liability (sponsor does not want to get sued if a student is injured working on the robot without sponsor supervision).

I have seen this come up before with other teams (that disbanded), and I have seen students request the sponsor 'give' them the previous years robot, and the sponsor said no.

AJ Quick
11-18-2003, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by Tristan Lall
just sitting there and moaning every third post how your bad, bad sponsor took everything

Incase you haven't read the other posts, I'm answering other peoples questions.

KenWittlief
11-18-2003, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Mike371
This may be a little off topic, just to remind the veteran teams, we will NOT be receiving a new charger and battery this year. Something about the cost. Only rookie teams will get a battery.

this is only half right - we will get new batteries, we wont get:

In order to provide the new robot controllers and other new parts in the kit this coming year and stay within budget constraints, it is necessary for FIRST to make some changes to the kit of parts. Battery chargers, joysticks and compressors will be supplied to teams in their first and second year. Veteran teams should have two sets of these parts and can use them on their 2004 robot. We hope you find some of the new parts exciting and challenging....

Hendrix
11-18-2003, 08:04 PM
If you don't care about official FIRST battery's you can check out
Battery Store (http://www.planetbattery.com/planetbattery/merchant.ihtml?id=8013&step=2) They have all kinds of battery's. If you want something that will last awhile (takes longer to charge) you can get higher amp batteries.

ChrisH
11-18-2003, 10:32 PM
Our first robot went to our sponsor, NASA-JPL. When somebody asked our team leader, who works there, what JPL was doing with it, his reply was something to the effect of "Remember that scene at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"?"

That was also the last time they asked for the robot.

UlTiMaTeP
11-20-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by AJ Quick
Yes we signed a waiver that said anything produced was theres. Can't really talk about this guys.. or they will take us to court... and you can't win against one of the largest military suppliers in the US. They've got tanks, guns, missiles, and depleated uranium.

Dont think there gonna sue you, your more of a pesky fruit fly than anything

UlTiMaTeP
11-20-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by Mike371
This may be a little off topic, just to remind the veteran teams, we will NOT be receiving a new charger and battery this year. Something about the cost. Only rookie teams will get a battery.

Says who? Ive only heard of this out of the many rumors floating around, and have not read this off the official FIRST site. I have heard of my fair share of rumors like 2 years ago when the game was gonna be dumping a goal of balls, and everyone was convinced of this, and then boxes appeared and shocked everyone....

ChrisH
11-20-2003, 09:42 AM
The announcement that veteran teams would not be getting a charger or a compressor came out in an official e-mail blast back around the time registration opened. The e-mail blast went on to say that all teams would be recieving two fresh batteries.

This was done to reduce needless cost. Just how many compressors do you need to have floating around the shop anyway?

Clark Gilbert
11-20-2003, 09:59 AM
In order to provide the new robot controllers and other new parts in the kit this coming year and stay within budget constraints, it is necessary for FIRST to make some changes to the kit of parts. Battery chargers, joysticks and compressors will be supplied to teams in their first and second year. Veteran teams should have two sets of these parts and can use them on their 2004 robot. We hope you find some of the new parts exciting and challenging.

Here (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22064)

Redhead Jokes
11-20-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by GregTheGreat
Check your local directory or Internet for the nearest Exide distributor to you. Their part number for the battery is ES18-12.

I know that there is a place in Chicago that has the batteries. A motor-cycle shop might have them, they should at least be able to order them.

About the charger, a local Menard's, Lowe's, or Home Depot should have them. I know Menard's had the same charger we used this year on 71.


It never hurts to talk to manager about getting these items donated. Explain your situation.

Do any parents work at those stores? Use them to ask for the doantion.

UlTiMaTeP
11-22-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by ChrisH
The announcement that veteran teams would not be getting a charger or a compressor came out in an official e-mail blast back around the time registration opened. The e-mail blast went on to say that all teams would be recieving two fresh batteries.

This was done to reduce needless cost. Just how many compressors do you need to have floating around the shop anyway?

Again I see nothing from USFIRST.ORG

AJ Quick
12-03-2003, 05:47 PM
Andy Baker sent us a battery and a charger, so all is good! Thanks Andy!

Justin Stiltner
12-24-2003, 03:16 PM
Again I see nothing from USFIRST.ORG
umm, look here
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=113
this is a listing of all the e-mail blasts that first has sent out this year.
if you notice ONLY team leaders or subscribed persons will recive those

Have some faith when this many individuals tell you somthing, unless its in the rumor mill the ppl that have been here for a while usually only post truthful statements. In this case it is true, vet teams WILL NOT recive chargers, joysticks, or compressors this year. Just because something isnt posted on usfirst.org doesent mean its not true.

If you still donot belive us, then I reccomend asking your team leader as they have recived this e-mail blast.
you can sign up for theise blasts yourself at
http://listserv.leapit.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?join=frcpublic

also actually read the link that Mr. Clark Gilbert posted if that still doesent convince you that what we have said is true, I dont know that we can help you.

edit
Sorry for the OT post, but I felt somthing had to be said.
/edit