PDA

View Full Version : Falling off the bar... :\


Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 07:32 PM
If there's already a topic about this, somebody please point me to it...if not, lemme know here. :)

I had to leave during the kickoff to go to work, so I don't know if Dean or Woody mentioned this..

When another bot is hanging on the bar, and you're under them on the ramp, and for some reason they fall...then a 130lb robot is going to smash down on you, right? :ahh:

I wasn't sure if Dean or Woody said anything, I didn't have much of a chance to see a whole lot of info about the bar.

Thanks! :D

BandChick
01-10-2004, 07:34 PM
they haven't said anything, but all that can be hoped for is that you don't end up with one BIG mess of robot accidents from hanging bots falling onto bots on the platform

Tytus Gerrish
01-10-2004, 07:34 PM
i guess weel have to get out the zip ties, Zach

IMDWalrus
01-10-2004, 07:41 PM
i guess weel have to get out the zip ties, Zach
Come to think of it, our 2003 robot is currently held together by zip ties - its front wheel fell off. :eek:

I really hope that we don't end up on the bottom of a bot pileup. This is definitely a great case for making your bot durable. What I'd be most worried about would be any manipulations (arms, etc.) on top of the robot.

I guess we'll see later on...

Stefan
01-10-2004, 07:41 PM
Well that was/is why the bar was/is adjustable. On the other hand, any mock up a team can make wont be...

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 07:41 PM
i guess weel have to get out the zip ties, Zach

And duck tape :D

EDIT: Nope, the bar is adjustable so that at the end, when the bots are hanging, the people can safely lower the bots.. right?

Raul
01-10-2004, 07:51 PM
And duck tape :D

EDIT: Nope, the bar is adjustable so that at the end, when the bots are hanging, the people can safely lower the bots.. right?
That was my understanding - they lower the bar to make it easy to clear the field (remove robots from the bar).

Katie Reynolds
01-10-2004, 07:53 PM
Wasn't there something in the video about preparing for impact?

Make her sturdy, boys 'n girls! :D

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 07:58 PM
I have a feeling there will be a lot of bot accidents...all it takes is one hit from above, and one or more elctronic components will be damaged :\ We got hit a lot last year (if yall remember the huge Swamp Thing robot that took up the entire ramp), and so we mounted a system of shocks for on our electronic component boards--we're going to need something much more advanced this year :\

I wonder if Dean meant for this to be something we'd have to work around...the threat of being crushed like this, to make it more of a challenge--or was it something he just didn't think of?? :ahh:

M. Hicken
01-10-2004, 08:31 PM
Im kinda' curious what it will be like in march, i mean last year we though when someone fell forward on the ramp it was bad, if someone's bot is flattened, that will royally suck. Also, if you have a hook or winch(or whatever) holding you up on the bar, what happens once the power is cut at the end of the match? BAM, best put some industrial shocks on the chassis this year ;-)

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 08:39 PM
Im kinda' curious what it will be like in march, i mean last year we though when someone fell forward on the ramp it was bad, if someone's bot is flattened, that will royally suck. Also, if you have a hook or winch(or whatever) holding you up on the bar, what happens once the power is cut at the end of the match? BAM, best put some industrial shocks on the chassis this year ;-)

I could be wrong, but won't the new little yellow backup battery have any part in continuing to allow your robot to hold onto the bar without it releasing when the power is cut at the end?

It'll be very easy for bots to fall too...if there are two robots with hooks, and the two hooks so much as slide into eachother, chances are one or both robots will become unhooked and fall :(


Imagine the carnage as two robots smash into two other robots as well as each other from several feet in the air...I'm bringing my camera :D

Jessica Boucher
01-10-2004, 08:47 PM
From what I remember in '00 there was some issues, but not much. I'm not worried about many robots falling off the bar.

< j/k > The key word this year...starts with an "R"...and ends with an "obust"... ;) </ j/k >

Good luck, folks!

Bcahn836
01-10-2004, 08:57 PM
Do you really think that a 130lb robot can do any possible damage to another 130lb robot??? hmmm... lets think about this one really really hard....

Jessica Boucher
01-10-2004, 09:00 PM
Do you really think that a 130lb robot can do any possible damage to another 130lb robot??? hmmm... lets think about this one really really hard....

Maybe not serious "smashing the bot to pieces" damage, but its certainly possible for robots to get caught on eachother, or to break a piece off.

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 09:02 PM
Do you really think that a 130lb robot can do any possible damage to another 130lb robot??? hmmm... lets think about this one really really hard....

If you aren't being sarcastic, then yes, definately :P

It doesn't matter how strong the top of your robot is...the sheer impact from the other bot falling on you from several feet in the air is enough to destroy you, at least on the inside :\

Unless they add some rule where you can't lift more than a certain height off the ground, which I dubt they will :D

Bduggan04
01-10-2004, 09:06 PM
I could be wrong, but won't the new little yellow backup battery have any part in continuing to allow your robot to hold onto the bar without it releasing when the power is cut at the end.

No, the backup is to prevent the controller from reseting if the robot draws too much current. It will in no way supply power to any other part of the robot. Any device liek you describe would have to be latched before the match ended or lock as soon as it lost power. When a robot is disable like they are before and after a match, there is no output signals from the controller.

Tytus Gerrish
01-10-2004, 09:08 PM
i havent found the yello batery inb the kit, Is it even in there?

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 09:10 PM
i havent found the yello batery inb the kit, Is it even in there?

They showed it on the video, I haven't seen the kit yet though

Bduggan04
01-10-2004, 09:10 PM
i havent found the yello batery inb the kit, Is it even in there?

After reading and rereading the kit list, I read the build rules, and I think the intent is to use the EduBot Battery. I wish they would have said this specifically. However, I also believe it states you can use any 7.2v battery.

Edit: I checked, rule R39 confirms this.

mtrawls
01-10-2004, 09:15 PM
A falling robot? Now really, I wouldn't advise anyone to build a robot that falls from the bar. Afterall, it is 9' up from the platform, or thereabouts. That is definately so high up, that you will WAY exceed the expressly stated limit of Vmax=10ft/sec :)

Originally Posted by Bcahn836
Do you really think that a 130lb robot can do any possible damage to another 130lb robot??? hmmm... lets think about this one really really hard....

*cringes at the thought of unshielded electronics, and memories past of bending aluminum under forces much less than this*

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 09:16 PM
After reading and rereading the kit list, I read the build rules, and I think the intent is to use the EduBot Battery. I wish they would have said this specifically. However, I also believe it states you can use any 7.2v battery.

Edit: I checked, rule R39 confirms this.

Ahhhhh!!!!!!

They said it was in the kit when they did the video I thought :\

Tytus, didn't you build the duck tape hovercraft with the edu kit?

Tytus Gerrish
01-10-2004, 09:21 PM
ya, that had a blue 7.2 for the controller but the propultion and the muffin fans were powered by a 14.4 drill batery

KenWittlief
01-10-2004, 09:28 PM
Um people...

why would you want your bot pulling itself all the way up to the bar?

you dont get any extra points for air under your bot

off the floor means millimeters, not meters

Etbitmydog
01-10-2004, 09:34 PM
Maybe not serious "smashing the bot to pieces" damage, but its certainly possible for robots to get caught on eachother, or to break a piece off.

I remember in 2000, when a robot was hanging off the bar and demolision squad, (which had a super fast robot at the time) actually charged at a robot hanging from the bar and sent it flying. It was one of the coolest things I've seen. :yikes: That's was all part of the game though. Teams know they have to build a sturdy robot so it's something to expect.

Clark Gilbert
01-10-2004, 09:34 PM
Um people...

why would you want your bot pulling itself all the way up to the bar?

you dont get any extra points for air under your bot

off the floor means millimeters, not meters
I could see doing it to avoid contact from other robots, although that doesn't seem like it would be much of a problem like it was in 2000. I remember a few times at Nationals where robots (one was from an impact from us) almost spun around the bar because they were hanging low.

dddriveman
01-10-2004, 09:39 PM
Um people...

why would you want your bot pulling itself all the way up to the bar?

you dont get any extra points for air under your bot

off the floor means millimeters, not meters

I like this. On my team during the brainstorming today everyone wanted to hang like three feet of the ground. Alot of them are rookies so they do not yet understand the difficulty of this and the time it will take. I on the other hand want to avoid the bar all together. It sound like to much time and danger

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 09:44 PM
Um people...

why would you want your bot pulling itself all the way up to the bar?

you dont get any extra points for air under your bot

off the floor means millimeters, not meters

Because all another robot has to do is smack into you and send you flying off the platform, or at least knock you enough to detatch you from the bar..

Or they could hit you and damage your hook or other lift device :(

If they can't reach you, chances are they can't harm you! :p

illumanat'i
01-10-2004, 09:48 PM
Um people...

why would you want your bot pulling itself all the way up to the bar?

you dont get any extra points for air under your bot

off the floor means millimeters, not meters
i definately agree, you need, at most, an inch to count, no room for giant falling robot chrashes

and making the robots built to handle what will be thrown at them should be expected... robots get hit, so build them tough

last year, if your robot could fall over on the ramp, you should of put in protection
this year, if your going to try to do chin ups, put in extra padding and prepare for the worst

KenWittlief
01-10-2004, 09:53 PM
there is no room up on the center platform for another bot to get a running start and smack you hard

whatever you grab the bar with, it can lock on with a death grip (till death do we part)

Swampmonkey
01-10-2004, 10:06 PM
there is no room up on the center platform for another bot to get a running start and smack you hard

whatever you grab the bar with, it can lock on with a death grip (till death do we part)

Ah, true :P but if you're only a few inches or so off the platform, all another robot has to do is get one wheel on you or the edge of their robot leaning on you, then that added weight could damage your hook or lift system, so you'd have to factor in it being able to support more weight..

When it comes to robots being destroyed, I'm pessimistic, don't want all our work to go down the drain because of something so minor :ahh:

KenWittlief
01-10-2004, 10:09 PM
but if you are 3 feet in the air, they can still grab you

and if you have a whimpy hook, now you come crashing down at 32ft/sec^2

I will take -50 points to missing my next match anyday.

Scooter
01-10-2004, 10:41 PM
You obviously need an airbag system like the Mars rover's...If you go flying, you will bounce. :yikes:

Bill

Swampmonkey
01-11-2004, 09:13 AM
You obviously need an airbag system like the Mars rover's...If you go flying, you will bounce. :yikes:

Bill

Good luck figuring that one out :p you'd end up rolling out of the playing field that way..

IMDWalrus
01-11-2004, 09:19 AM
You obviously need an airbag system like the Mars rover's...If you go flying, you will bounce. :yikes:

Bill
Where's Dave when we need him?

KenWittlief
01-11-2004, 12:18 PM
would the NASA airbag system cost more than the max $$ single item limit for our bots?

can we buy them on ebay yet?


you inflate one of those things while you are on the bar, and you wont have to worry about any other bot getting anywhere near you

which brings up another question: how how is the ceiling at the regionals?

:c)

Joe Ross
01-11-2004, 04:26 PM
which brings up another question: how how is the ceiling at the regionals?

In the past, FIRST has stated that minimum clearance would be 20 ft. There isn't a rule about it this year, but I would expect that it would be similar.

Swampmonkey
01-11-2004, 06:44 PM
In the past, FIRST has stated that minimum clearance would be 20 ft. There isn't a rule about it this year, but I would expect that it would be similar.

Dang :( So much for our jetpack system...back to the drawing boards :yikes:

Jay H 237
01-11-2004, 07:53 PM
When we built our robot in '00 once we grabbed the bar we couldn't let go. We had a "cam" that snapped in place once the dual hooks grabbed on effectively closing the hooks completely around the bar. We decided early on in the build to do this to prevent our robot from getting knocked off. If another robot hit us our bot would basically swing back and forth. If the other robot didn't back up quick enough our robot would swing back into theirs! :D Also a latch on the arms was activated by a servo once we pulled ourselves up so that when the power was cut at the end of a match the arms wouldn't extend thereby dropping our robot back onto the platform and lossing points. We were also aware of the possibility of damage from other robots so all the electronics were kept towards the center of the robot as possible and all sides were shielded including a "skid plate" underneath. Our robot did recieve "battle scars" but nothing serious. The downside to grabbing the bar and not able to let go is you have to do all your "driving around" in the match before you would consider going for the bar. That could have changed if we added say another servo or something to release the "cam" but our stategy was to keep other robots off the bar (except our alliance).

Specialagentjim
01-20-2004, 03:17 PM
I remember in 2000, when a robot was hanging off the bar and demolision squad, (which had a super fast robot at the time) actually charged at a robot hanging from the bar and sent it flying. It was one of the coolest things I've seen. :yikes: That's was all part of the game though. Teams know they have to build a sturdy robot so it's something to expect.

Yeah, I remember that too. For anyone that recalls the Demo Squad and Panzer Aluminum (132) match, there was brutal carnage unfortunetly. Panzer Aluminum was my middle school team, and we had a robot built strong. Our driver decided that he wanted to get on the bar, and Demo Squad decided the same. I can't remember who the other team was, but a lightweight robot made mostly of plastic was already hanging when the two powerhouses decided to come for the bar from each side. Demo and Panzer started ramming from both sides, destroying the plastic bot in between. Took them an extra couple of minutes to go out on the field and collect all the pieces that flew off.

So my question is: Is bot ramming to get another bot off the bar legal?

Stormhammer
01-20-2004, 04:24 PM
what about modifying a carrabeener ( those of you who do mtn climbing would know what this is, for those you of who dont, well look it up ) but making it unlatch both ways? that might work. Also I figure if you're gonna have that ability to latch onto it, your robot will be around 130lbs, so yea, design is key to this I should think

IMDWalrus
01-20-2004, 05:50 PM
So my question is: Is bot ramming to get another bot off the bar legal?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that one of our goals is to not destroy the other robots on the field.

While I doubt it's legal, I'm not positive either way. In any case, it doesn't exactly mesh with Gracious Professionalism...

And just remember: do unto others as you would have them do to you. Do you really want your robot to be on the receiving end of that treatment?

JVN
01-20-2004, 05:57 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that one of our goals is to not destroy the other robots on the field.

While I doubt it's legal, I'm not positive either way. In any case, it doesn't exactly mesh with Gracious Professionalism...

And just remember: do unto others as you would have them do to you. Do you really want your robot to be on the receiving end of that treatment?
In 2000, if you were on the bar (in my experiences) anything goes.
I imagine it will be the same this year.

By the way:
I don't see Gracious Professionalism as meaning "don't play hard".
Build your robot robust, as it will likely take a few hits, whether you want it to or not.

IMDWalrus
01-20-2004, 06:06 PM
By the way:
I don't see Gracious Professionalism as meaning "don't play hard".
Build your robot robust, as it will likely take a few hits, whether you want it to or not.
I didn't say that teams shouldn't be playing full on. I just don't think teams should be going out of their way to demolish other robots.

Aignam
01-20-2004, 06:18 PM
I didn't say that teams shouldn't be playing full on. I just don't think teams should be going out of their way to demolish other robots.
Not out of their way, certainly. But if it happens in the heat of competition, you have to be prepared.

Solace
01-20-2004, 08:04 PM
I don't think that there will be a large amount of ramming robots already attached to the bar. There isn't a whole lot of room on that top platform, so another robot wouldn't have enough space to accelerate to any partivularly high velocity before impact one that is already hanging.

Aignam
01-20-2004, 09:07 PM
I don't think that there will be a large amount of ramming robots already attached to the bar. There isn't a whole lot of room on that top platform, so another robot wouldn't have enough space to accelerate to any partivularly high velocity before impact one that is already hanging.
The ingenuity of FIRST-ers ceases to surprise very few. We're capable of it. ::shrugs:: It's just another challenge.

Dave Hurt
01-21-2004, 08:20 AM
Eh, if I can remember from 2000, there were only a few times a robot actually fell off the bar. I was personally involved in one such incident, we had a hook and winch to pull our robot on the bar. Another machine was already on the bar, and we hooked on right next to them. In the process of pulling ourselves up, we got underneith them and lifted them clean off the bar. Their machine was built like a tank though, and didn't suffer any damages that I knew of.

As for what happens on the bar... it's the same thing as first has said about most of the previous competitions. You try to get up there, anything can happen. They said the same thing in 99 with the platform, and in 2000 with the bar.

Swampmonkey
03-14-2004, 11:47 AM
I know this is a very old thread...but after attending the central florida regionals, I have to say that there wasn't much problem with falling off the bar, At one point, all 4 robots even got up on the bar at the same time! There's only one team I can think of that fell completely off the bar, and then there are some that backtracked at the end, and, of course, a LOT of bots flipping over in other places. :\

So teams that are still worrying about hanging or getting up on the platform (some aren't even attempting it because of the danger), at the Cetnral Florida Regionals, there wasn't too much of a problem with falling off the bar. :cool: