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View Full Version : ball corral block, good or bad?


Lil' Lavery
03-26-2004, 10:35 PM
Do you aprove of the strategy of blocking the ball corrals, whether it be with a robot, mobile goal...
Some call it unfair, I call it a legit strategy. It might not get you the highest QPs, but you have to do what you do to win. Be it unfair or not, you have to deal with it. Do you think its helped or hurt the game this year?
Personnally, despite lower scores, I think it has helped. It has create action packed games full of shoving matches, and tug of wars. It make the game more exited to spectators and fans. And it show the weight of small devices and advantages such as having a goal hook.

MisterX
03-26-2004, 10:43 PM
I like the possibility of having the corral blocked, though our team does not use it as a strat, the reason that we have the goal latch on our robot is so we can easily move the goal and part of that is needed in clearing out obstacles in front of you corral, it is a great part to the game. Why I even remeber in the playoffs at UTC scrimmage when 126 had their corral blocked putting an end to their very effective HP the crowd went into an uproar and that was merely a scrimmage imagine the drama such a thing could bring with a robot at the playoff of the CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!

In short another good decision by FIRST on game plans and rules as it adds character to an already great game

Bcahn836
03-27-2004, 12:16 PM
That has happened to us a few times, but it actually helped us. That was where we were going to put our goal any way. well a little to the left in front of the human player. which we were able to do.

Adam Y.
03-27-2004, 01:11 PM
It made me feel warm inside when I saw the other team do that to us. We lost because of stragety and not the robot.

Steve P
03-27-2004, 05:13 PM
Is the mobile goal considered part of a robot when it's latched onto it? My question is, if our robot grabs onto the mobile goal with its hooks and pushes it into the ball corall so that the mobile goal ONLY breaks the plane of the corral, would we recieve a 10 point penalty?

Aignam
03-27-2004, 05:25 PM
Is the mobile goal considered part of a robot when it's latched onto it? My question is, if our robot grabs onto the mobile goal with its hooks and pushes it into the ball corall so that the mobile goal ONLY breaks the plane of the corral, would we recieve a 10 point penalty?
No, I believe that the mobile goal is considered a seperate entity at all times. Only the 2x ball would be considered part of the robot when touching it.

Jon K.
03-27-2004, 07:31 PM
While I don't like the blocking of the chutes(I am one of our Human Players), it is a legit strategy. It also makes you feel good when you are a HP because that shows that other teams know your good, otherwise they wouldn't attempt to block you out.

Jones571
03-28-2004, 09:06 AM
Unless both ball chutes are blocked then it is some what useless of a strategy because any one behind the glass can touch and pass the balls to the other team. So if he is really that good he will still be getting lots of balls and by having all these people ready to pass him balls he actually might be able to take more shots then he would of in the first place with only him and his mentor prepping him with balls. I’m not saying it is a bad strategy we have used it in the past. Now looking at it possibly a waste of time? At least for our or any robot who is very efficient at picking up small and large balls to waste time bringing a goal to the other side of the field.

Another thought if the other teams human player touches the goal wouldn’t it disables your robot so it could also be a very bad strategy at the same time. Eliminating you from the match.

MisterX
03-28-2004, 11:29 AM
I beleieve it would only disable your robot if you were still touching the mobile goal as the human player touched it. and like wise if any robot were touching you as you touched the mobile which was touched by the HP then both robots would be disabled and so on.

c-squared_2006
03-28-2004, 11:00 PM
I think that dominating the bar is that best way to go. After all with all the matches that I've watched, usually getting on the bar really will help! Usually the domination of the bar wins the match. The balls usually becomes important later on, when the number of robots on the bar are equal.

Kevin Sevcik
03-29-2004, 08:56 AM
I just panicked and checked the rules, but I don't see anything at all about a robot being disabled for a HP touching a goal. I see two rules:
<G29>
If a human player touches a mobile goal that has been pushed into the Ball Corral, his / her team will be assessed a 10-point penalty for each occurrence.
<G28>
If any part of a robot is in a Ball Corral (breaks the vertical plane of the diamond plate of the Wall), a referee will throw a 10-point penalty flag. The robot operator and the human player have a shared responsibility to avoid contact. If a team member touches the offending robot, that teams' robot will
be disabled. If a robot pushes another robot to break the plane, the pushing robot will be assessed the penalty. If a human player touches a robot that has been pushed into the Ball Corral, the pushing robot and the pushed robot will be disabled.
So I don't see anything about a robot being disabled for an HP touching the goal. The goal isn't another robot, and the goal isn't an extension of the pushing or grabbing robot, so I don't see how this would be. Has anyone encountered this ruling at a regional or anything?

Koen
03-29-2004, 09:12 AM
At peachtree, there was one rookie team that was able to push a mobile goal into the opponent's goal during autonomous mode. It was sweet

jrgrim12
03-29-2004, 11:49 AM
The only problem that I see with pushing the mobile goal into the ball chute is that it is a saftey hazzard. If someone would have their hand down there when a robot shoved the goal into the chute they could have been hurt. They gave the robots a 10pt penalty for doing this so why shouldn't their be a penalty for the mobile goal. FIRST is lucky no one was hurt this year. In future games I hope they never put students in that kind of danger again! Like I heard someone say "You lost two fingers and you get a 10pt penality!" I'm glad to hear that didn't happen but it could have. :ahh:

Kevin Sevcik
03-29-2004, 12:20 PM
I think robots can potentially reach much farther into the goal corral than the mobile goal, what with arms and pointy things and all. A mobile goal can't extend farther than 10" into the goal corral, and that's the pointy end. At that, the goal is only 6" or 7" up off the floor. I can't see any obvious pinch points without an HP extending his hand up to or outside the diamond plate boundary, which is already out of bounds. Thus, I would think the only dangers are: getting a pretty bad bruise if your hand is within 10" of the front of the ball corral without a ball in front of it to push it out of the way, or getting your hand run over if you've got it on the ground within 10" of the front of the goal, for some reason. I can't see much of a way to lose fingers without breaking the safety rules already in place.

I'll agree that it's a bit of a safety hazard, but not nearly as much as a robot extending in and/or purposely interacting with an HP. The key point being that FIRST knows pretty much exactly how a goal and corral can interact, but can't predict what robots will look like and how they will act.

R2K2D2
03-29-2004, 12:32 PM
I think blocking the corral with a goal is a totally valid way of playing the game. It is a very valid strategy, and has lead to the victory and success of many teams at many of the regionals. It is an aspect of the game that can greatly reduce one teams scoring potential thus leading to an edge. I don't see anyhting wrong with that strategy at all. It is fair and not against the rules, so why not do it? It would be like saying don't get on the bar and spread some wings (if you had them) to prevent other teams from latching on to the bar. It's fair and valid and a good strategy if played out properly.

Gene F
03-29-2004, 12:38 PM
At St. Louis they were giving penaties for the goal crossing the plain, at Peach Tree they didn't. Did FIRST relax the rules?

I do think it is a valid strategy and one that could determine the outcome of the match. This years game can be won with a lot of small balls and capping or by hanging (better yet, both). In watching the Midwest regional this weekend many of the highest scoring matches involved capped goals with lots of 5pt balls. If my memory is correct the 210pt. match was with only one robot hanging. 17 balls divided in two goals both capped, one robot hanging and a 10pt penalty. If someone had blocked the ball corals it would have been a differnt outcome.

My two cents worth!

P.S. The human players were using balls to push the goals out of the way at Peach Tree!

Ryan M.
03-29-2004, 12:43 PM
P.S. The human players were using balls to push the goals out of the way at Peach Tree!That's probably the reason the penalties were being given out. Robots pushing the goals into corrals at the Buckeye weren't penalized.

Lil' Lavery
04-01-2004, 10:11 PM
I think that dominating the bar is that best way to go. After all with all the matches that I've watched, usually getting on the bar really will help! Usually the domination of the bar wins the match. The balls usually becomes important later on, when the

You musnt have seen the killer bees, emoticons, the fridge or any of the other ball collectiong teams in action. No bar naging needed for them to score high and dominate matches. especially if they or an ally of theirs can cap...
anyway, by the time of our regionals, pushing the goals with balls hadnt really happened yet(we went to VCU and Chesepeake). So that changes the game once again.

Gabe Salas Jr.
04-01-2004, 11:07 PM
Personally, I think it helped the game. For the most part, a robot that controls the platform, could stop several bar hanging robots from hanging (but not all). The same with the ball corrals, by "choking" the ball corrals with mobile goals (or robots), is another method to mess with another team's game/strategy (regardless if they are ball handling or not). There needs to be a balance in stopping other team from "doing their thing," besides pushing them around, or ramming them all day long, and integrating ball corrals into the game is a good call.

lordy
04-02-2004, 08:09 AM
That's probably the reason the penalties were being given out. Robots pushing the goals into corrals at the Buckeye weren't penalized.

Robots pushing goals into corrals were not penalized at New York either. But I did not see any teams using balls to push the goals away. However most of the penalties given were for robots or HPs crossing the plane.

Jeremy L
04-02-2004, 07:27 PM
I don't believe there were any penalties for human-player-zone-goal-plane-breaking-robots at either UTC New England or Philly regionals. Our robot's super ball catching and collecting skills have won us a regional. Whenever a goal blocked the human player opening, we either went to the other opening or pushed the goal out of the way with our conveniently-placed-heightwise basket mechanism; and whenever there was a robot in the way we pushed it out of the way with our super-torquey-team-45-inspired drive train. So all in all, for our team, a goal in our way was not in our way for long, but against less powerful robots in our situation, the situation could have proven disastrous.
See you all in Atlanta! :D

Ryan F.
04-02-2004, 07:41 PM
At the midwest regional, they didn't penalize for the goal going into the chute. Though I don't think it helped a lot...because there was always another chute. Unless the human player on the other side wasn't up to par.

westfalia
04-02-2004, 10:35 PM
When Miss Daisy finally started working the way we hoped she would, we found that a both offensive and defensive strategy was required to win, it's only logical! For the offensive, we were able to hang and herd a decent number of balls. In the defense, we weren't afraid to play spoiler when it came time for opponents to try to hang. We also blocked a few corrals in our rounds. In our case, I think we really benefitted from the ability to block the ball corrals. It seemed to me like a cheap strategy at first, but I realized that we definitely weren't the first to implement the idea. So my opinion is that it's perfectly okay, and it makes for an EVEN MORE EXCITING game, if that's at all possible. I've seen quite a few pushing matches between large-quantity ball catchers and other robots. I love it.