PDA

View Full Version : Confused on drafting in finals.


Stephen Kowski
02-25-2002, 07:08 PM
Ok after all this talk does anyone have any official ruling on how FIRST is doing the drafting, and who is allowed to pick who (as in seeded teams not unranked). Who is exactly are the #1, #2, and #3 alliances allowed and not allowed to pick, and if they pick another seeded team, what happens to the chosen team's picks in respect to the other teams. With all the talk about it I got lost someone plz help. (I was under the impression that the seeded alliances were allowed to pick whomever they wanted seeded or not, of course, if the seeded team they chose declines that team has to choose someone else.)

thx for the help,
-Stephen Kowski
-Team 312: Heat Wave

ColleenShaver
02-26-2002, 01:11 AM
Last year, teams were allowed to choose from anyone not already chosen, seeded or not.

This year they have gone back to the old way. The team with the most qualifying points (or highest average, same difference) is #1 seed and so on.. The top 8 teams are ranked and get to choose their partners from any teams NOT in the top 8. If a team declines, they are not allowed to be chosen by another team.

Also, something important when choosing: all 3 teams must play at least once in every round of the elimination matchs (i.e. quarter-, semi-, finals).

Unless the rules have changed and I haven't seen them, you CANNOT choose from the other top 8 seeded teams, but anyone from 9 down is open for choosing and must accept or forfeit play.

See everyone in Virginia, Silicon Valley, and Nationals!

---colleen

Joe Ross
02-26-2002, 07:57 AM
Rule T7 says: Eight (8) alliances at Regional Events and thirty-two (32) alliances (8 per division) at The
Championship Event qualify to advance to the elimination matches. The alliances are
formed as follows:
• For Regional Events: From the top eight (8) seeded teams, starting in descending rank
order, a pre-college student representative selects an alliance partner from among the
remaining unpartnered teams. After all eight teams have selected their first partner, the
process repeats and a second partner is selected.
• For The Championship Event: Teams are evenly divided up into 4 “divisions.” Within
each division, from the top eight (8) seeded teams, starting in descending rank order, a
pre-college student representative selects an alliance partner from among the remaining
unpartnered teams. After all eight teams have selected their first partner, the process
repeats and a second partner is selected.
As you can see, it says that a seeded team can choose an unpartnered team. This leads some people to say that at that point, all teams are unpartnered and the first seed can choose any team, including another seeded team.

On the other hand, it says that after all 8 teams have chosen their first partners, the process repeats. Presumably these are the same 8 teams that were seeded 1-8, since nothing is said otherwise (in 2000, when you could pick a seeded team, it was explicitly stated that if a top seed was chosen, then the 9th seed, etc, got to choose)

I know you aren't the only one confused...

soap108
02-27-2002, 12:14 AM
i've asked first via email several times and still no reply

:(

Joe Johnson
02-27-2002, 08:36 AM
But...

I have really been fustrated with the speed of responses from FIRST this year. Yes, they have to deal with almost 700 teams this year, but it seems like they have really really gone into low gear when it comes to answering important questions.

To name a few examples:
[list=1]
Will we be able to make spare / repair parts after a regional?
Tethers vs. entanglement
Can a mechanism reach into the custom electronics box?
is Football thre right sports analogy or is Soccer?
and now how does the drafting process work
[/list=1]

I am very curious why things have gotten so much slower this year.

Joe J.

soap108
02-27-2002, 09:31 AM
I imagine they look at the elim process and say: "Teams will find out after the first weekend anyway." "It's not a make-or-break need-to-know-right-now kinda thing."

If they don't post an answer soon then they should expect to be bugged about it on 3/7 - the first practice day of first weekend.


A simple YES #1 can pick #2 or NO they can't would be nice.

KA-108 :cool:

Ken Leung
02-27-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
But...

I have really been fustrated with the speed of responses from FIRST this year. Yes, they have to deal with almost 700 teams this year, but it seems like they have really really gone into low gear when it comes to answering important questions.

To name a few examples:
[list=1]
Will we be able to make spare / repair parts after a regional?
Tethers vs. entanglement
Can a mechanism reach into the custom electronics box?
is Football thre right sports analogy or is Soccer?
and now how does the drafting process work
[/list=1]

I am very curious why things have gotten so much slower this year.

Joe J.


You would be surprised at how long it take to answer each of the questions. Not only do LOTS and LOTS of people ask questions on the board, they are also really tricky questions sometimes. So, as soon as the FRCengineers realize they can't post a straight forward answer, they leave it waiting with the rest of the pile until they ask people like Eric who decide what the answer is.

Sometimes it is really frustrating when 120 questions are just sitting there and most of them hard to answer and keep track of.
And I remember one of the FRCengineers telling me how busy they are in Engineering. Sometimes they are so busy that they couldn't even look at the questiosn, some other times they have 4~5 people sitting there half the afternoon and post about 20 responds.

Believe me, they are working hard. This only shows how much FIRST need more staff when there are so much growth in the competition.

Few suggestion I want to make to FIRST after all these are over:

1. Have a top pirority group for questions that need immediate attention. It will be the kind of questions you mentioned that would affect lots of teams.

2. Improve the manual and make it easier for teams to understand everything. We got a lot of great responds from the FRCengineers with good explaination that could go into the manual, and tell teams exactly what each rule mean.

3. Explain to teams how important it is to READ THE MANUAL. A lot of questions wouldn't have been asked if the team read the manual first. There are a lot of new rules and info coming out in team updates, but people still keep asking the same questions as if they don't even know what team update is.

4. Better way to organize answers on the board, so that teams can easily look through 800 messages and find what they need to read...

I think all these could be done with a few months before 6-weeks, but I guess they didn't think about it before hand. So, mean while, for the more important questions, I guess you just have to call them up and let them hear your voice.

I wish I couldn't joined in earlier and help them clear out lots of silly questions... but I didn't join until the 4th week or so.

natalie
02-27-2002, 09:55 PM
In the referee's conference last week, this question was addressed. The answer was that seeded teams can pick each other. In other words Number 1 seed can pick Number 2 seed etc. Number 2 can refuse because thay still can pick. If Number 2 says yes, than the Number 9 seed becomes the eight seed etc. Here is another scenario. If Number 1 picks Number 9 and Number 9 refuses thinking that they may get a chance to be a picker and no one else picks a seed team Number 9 would be out, but if they get lucky and another seeded team picks another seeded team than Number 9 becomes number 8 and they will be allowed to pick.

Stephen Kowski
02-27-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by soap108
I imagine they look at the elim process and say: "Teams will find out after the first weekend anyway." "It's not a make-or-break need-to-know-right-now kinda thing."

If they don't post an answer soon then they should expect to be bugged about it on 3/7 - the first practice day of first weekend.


A simple YES #1 can pick #2 or NO they can't would be nice.

KA-108 :cool:

They can be sure I am going to be asking when I get to KSC (asking, harrassing....whatever) :p

soap108
02-28-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by natalie
In the referee's conference last week, this question was addressed. The answer was that seeded teams can pick each other. In other words Number 1 seed can pick Number 2 seed etc. Number 2 can refuse because thay still can pick. If Number 2 says yes, than the Number 9 seed becomes the eight seed etc. Here is another scenario. If Number 1 picks Number 9 and Number 9 refuses thinking that they may get a chance to be a picker and no one else picks a seed team Number 9 would be out, but if they get lucky and another seeded team picks another seeded team than Number 9 becomes number 8 and they will be allowed to pick.

Ok. I talked with the next best thing to FIRST- the head scoring db author (who btw actually did talk with Eric on this). This above quote is now false. #1 may not pick #2, etc...

Here's a quote from the email I got based on the most recent scorekeepers training: "The statement was made that the teams can select among remaining
unpartnered teams. The ruling will come out that the top 8 seeded teams
are the ones doing the selection, and they will be considered
"partnered" or whatever wording is used. It just would not be fair to
let them select among themselves."

Hope this settles the issue. And hopefully FIRST doesn't change their mind between now and .... later.

Best regards,
KA-108 :cool:

AdamT
02-28-2002, 02:00 PM
You say that someone had reguarded this as not fair and that we may be going back to the old system of #1 not picking #2...

If my memory serves me correctly, 2000 ("the old way") #1 COULD pick #2. As unfair as this may be, that's life. I remember VCU in 2000 where this situation came or #1 picking #2 and a powerhouse was formed, you just do your best to beat them...

I'm still curious to a final response as well.

soap108
02-28-2002, 02:13 PM
2002 != 2000

soap108
02-28-2002, 02:17 PM
In 1999, the first year of alliances, #1 could not pick 2-8.

AdamT
02-28-2002, 02:26 PM
Just makin sure everyone was on the same page....

I think it would be cool to see things go back to pre-2000 ways...make the creativity of tournament flow...

soap108
02-28-2002, 02:33 PM
Personally I don't really have a preference regarding the various elim-picking flavors we've been exposed to. I just want to try and reduce ambiguity about 2002. :)

Whatever the future holds, 2003 and beyond, please no more "Tournament Trees" like 1995-1998. Programmatically they are a nightmare!

Food 4 thought: What if future drafting was done like most major sports where teams could trade their draft pick away for "cash" and "a player to be named later" or "2 picks in the second round". Wow! Now what's everyone got to say about that? Pls start a 2003 elim drafting thread and fire away!

KA-108 :)

Ken Leung
03-01-2002, 05:39 AM
Given that every team is going to try their best at qualifying rounds, it seems to me that we might not have the "BEST" alliance during finals... It's true that not all top teams could be perfect partner for each other, but being two of the top 8 and perfect for each other do make it more likely to be the "BEST" alliance in a competition.

Seems like becoming champion this year isn't as easy as the past years... There are a lot of factors.

You have to see whether you are on the top 8 or not. If so, then there are 7 other teams you can't choose... So you will have to rely on pairing up with the best partner outside top 8, AND THEN pick a third partner that could work well with you or your partner, in case your two doesn't work well together.

Mean while, it's going to be even weirder at the Championship event where the teams are divided into 4 division... There are already 3/4 of the robots you can't choose if you are on top 8. And FIRST is likely to follow last year's rule and split the regional champions and finalists into different division. So, not only are you limited to teams in your division who aren't on top 8, they would also be teams you probably haven't played a regional with.

It's going to be an interesting year indeed. Better work harder in scouting! A lot of teams aren't going to get much sleep for the next month or two.

Stephen Kowski
03-02-2002, 12:01 AM
Ok, now I have heard a lot since I have started this thread, but soap or Natalie do either one of you have tangible evidence to back either statement, no offense, but in my statement I asked if any had and official ruling. It is just very confusing and all I am reading is hear-say because it does make a difference since my team is going to be at KSC. Sorry if that seemed like an insult of your credibility because it wasn't meant that way.

Thank you with your help with this,
-Stephen Kowski
-Team 312:Heat Wave

natalie
03-02-2002, 09:52 AM
Steven, I know for a fact that this exact question was addressed at the head referee's conference. I was the one that asked the question. It was stated that seeded teams would be allowed to choose seeded teams, just like it was stated in my earlier post. BUT, that is not the official call. I cannot speak for FIRST. The best thing for you to do is when you arrive at your regional, seek out the Field Marshall from FIRST or the Head referee and ask them this specific question and they will be happy to give you the official response. I hope this helps.

Stephen Kowski
03-02-2002, 03:05 PM
Ok thank you for the advice and thanks to everyone that has helped in this thread to try and get things straight. Good Luck to everyone at their respective regionals.

soap108
03-04-2002, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Stephen Kowski
but soap or Natalie do either one of you have tangible evidence to back either statement, no offense, ...

Thank you with your help with this,
-Stephen Kowski
-Team 312:Heat Wave


It's understandable you want FIRST to answer. No offense taken.

My tangible evidence was mentioned in my post. If the scoring db doesn't allow top 8 to pick another top 8, then i'm confident it wont happen.

c-ya at KSC.

KA-108 :cool:

Stephen Kowski
03-09-2002, 09:06 PM
Welp final ruling: seeded teams can pick other seeded teams.

soap108
03-11-2002, 10:33 AM
yep. grrrrrr. sorry for the apparent mis-infomation. :o I wonder if FIRST will stick with this ruling for the rest of the year. They really need a Team Update #8.

Also, all that talk about tethers and entanglement- what's allowed and what's not seemed to be thrown out the window too. Again, They really need a Team Update #8.

Interesting that no one in top 8 picked anyone else in top 8 at KSC. It's as though no one knew about it ahead of time or asked FIRST at the event. Again, They really need a Team Update #8.

KA-108 :)

MrsT
03-11-2002, 11:07 AM
One of the top 8 picked another top 8.....allowing #9 seed (435) to be the 8th Alliance captain.


Lisa T:)

Kyle Hill
03-11-2002, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by soap108

Interesting that no one in top 8 picked anyone else in top 8 at KSC. It's as though no one knew about it ahead of time or asked FIRST at the event. Again, They really need a Team Update #8.

Yeah, they do. The MC at KSC really confused everyone with his interpretation of the rules, so nobody there knew the answer to that question until a minute before the alliances were going to be picked. (I'm currently praying Woodie will be at Long Island on Friday like he was last year.)

Although he did comment that "it's interesting that none of the Top 8 teams picked any of the others.. because.. uh... it's good that everyone is letting everyone else play." Riiiiiiiight.

Andrew Dahl
03-11-2002, 11:50 AM
ranked teams can pick ANY other team- ranked or unranked

ie number 1 can pick #2

dahl
Team 497
finished 2nd in qualification
2002 winner of the GM Industrial design award

Stephen Kowski
03-11-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Kyle Hill


Yeah, they do. The MC at KSC really confused everyone with his interpretation of the rules, so nobody there knew the answer to that question until a minute before the alliances were going to be picked. (I'm currently praying Woodie will be at Long Island on Friday like he was last year.)


Actually if you talked to the field manager she knew that seeded could pick seeded Friday morning, that's how I found out.

Wraithfighter
03-21-2002, 05:42 PM
In the WRRF regional last year (using the old 2000 bots), seeded teams were allowed to pick other seeded teams.

Guess what happened?

1 picked 2.

3 picked 4.

5 picked 6.

7 picked 8.

9 picked 10.

11 picked 12.

13 picked 14.

15 picked 16 and 17 (17 teams, lowest ranked seed got a third player).

As one would expect, seeds 1 and 2 won it.

This destroys the competitiveness of the last round. The best teams are together, and there is no hope for those below them.

I REALLY hope the rule gets changed.

(btw, the WRRF regional takes place in fall, using the previous school years' robots)

Ricksta
03-27-2002, 08:02 AM
the rule is very simple. the number one seed can pick any robot including the other 7 seeds. If they pick a seed, that seed can decline and reserve their right to be allowed to pick teams. if they do this they cannot be picked by any other seeded team. The seeded team that declines is still allowed to pick a seeded team. if a non seeded team declines they are done for the day. again its not that hard. The only thing you cant do is pick a robot that has already picked a partner (ie number 3 cant pick number 1) simple as that