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shelves4
04-02-2002, 08:37 PM
When do they announce the divisions for nationals?

Dima
04-02-2002, 08:38 PM
But what i do know is that the will be 4 fields total this year including the einstein field. So i would expect 3 Divisions

Ricky Q.
04-02-2002, 08:59 PM
On The FIRST Site they have the names of the Divisions listed already, so there will be 4. The names are here: Championship Event (http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/chevents.htm)

Madison
04-02-2002, 09:58 PM
There will only be three divisions this year.

One of 'em got the boot, but I'm not quite sure which it is. I have a feeling, though, and I'm not happy about it :(

AdamT
04-02-2002, 10:30 PM
Where did this idea come from...that one got the boot?

Eistein was used last year......

Madison
04-03-2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by AdamT
Where did this idea come from...that one got the boot?

Eistein was used last year......

No, it's not Einstein. . . I think it may be Galileo, but Christina and I pushed for Curie (not that it'll make a difference). . .

So, it'll probably be Archimedes, Curie, and Newton. . .or, so we were told.

You never know with these things. . .

3m6o5ejz
04-03-2002, 09:55 AM
i believe that there will still be 4 divisions, einstein which is not listed is kind of like a wildcard field outside in the stadium. Each team will have a couple opporitunities to play on Einstein. It's where the championship matches will be played.

AdamT
04-03-2002, 10:46 AM
Right, I know these things....

But where did this whole idea come from? Have FIRST staffers mentioned this?

Maybe this should be in the rumor forum.....

Madison
04-03-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by AdamT
Right, I know these things....

But where did this whole idea come from? Have FIRST staffers mentioned this?

Maybe this should be in the rumor forum.....

Oh, heh...should've mentioned that. Someone from FIRST told Christina and I that, but they weren't entirely sure themselves. . .

So, take that to mean what you will :)

Dima
04-03-2002, 01:36 PM
THERE WILL BE ONLY 4 FIELDS first staff member told me

AdamT
04-03-2002, 06:10 PM
Right,

We know that, but apparently one of the DIVISIONS may be taken away, leaving just 3 divisions and four fields....

Jan Olligs
04-03-2002, 06:33 PM
In the rules, picture T-2 (page A-3) there are four divisions. Why would FIRST want to change that? Wouldn't it be complicated to play an elimination round between three alliances?

Ricky Q.
04-03-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Jan Olligs
In the rules, picture T-2 (page A-3) there are four divisions. Why would FIRST want to change that? Wouldn't it be complicated to play an elimination round between three alliances?

Exactly what I was thinking, It wouldn't make sense to only have 3, because then how do you play for the Championship??

Katie Reynolds
04-04-2002, 10:23 AM
... Maybe we should just drop this. I'm thinking that, until they announce who is in what division, we're not gonna know how many divisions there are until then. Right now it looks like everyone is just speculating! We'll see, I guess :)

- Katie

Ricky Q.
04-04-2002, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Katie_93
... Maybe we should just drop this. I'm thinking that, until they announce who is in what division, we're not gonna know how many divisions there are until then. Right now it looks like everyone is just speculating! We'll see, I guess :)

- Katie

Or we could just argue and speculate endlessly until the divisions are annouced, giving us something to pass the time until then. :D

AdamT
04-04-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by falco269


Or we could just argue and speculate endlessly until the divisions are annouced, giving us something to pass the time until then. :D

Isn't that what this board is for after the build season?:D

I'm just kidding....kinda

Jnadke
04-04-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Katie_93
... Maybe we should just drop this. I'm thinking that, until they announce who is in what division, we're not gonna know how many divisions there are until then. Right now it looks like everyone is just speculating! We'll see, I guess :)
- Katie


Let's see... I think it goes something like...

"If it wasn't for girls, guys would go around thinking they had no flaws..."

Bah... I say we keep debating!

Joe Johnson
04-09-2002, 04:11 PM
I cannot see any way that FIRST could have only 3 divisions in FL.

I have heard that there will only be 4 fields at EPCOT not 5 as there was last year.

I am curious how they are planning on working the 4 divisions. Will each division have a fixed arena or will they rotate them at times?

At first you might think that FIRST would have them all fixed at a particular arena, but this is not quite as easy a you might think. One of the reasons for having Einstein be a floating field was that teams would not have to spend 3 days baking in the sun (which will likely be HOT in late April -- I still shudder when I think back to the Finals of 1998. Brian Beatty & I were almost one drop of sweat away from heat stroke watching Teams #1 & #45 battling it out for king of the puck -- it was HOT).

Beyond the heat factor, the outdoor stage is the high profile stage, so I suppose that FIRST will want to spread the wealth there as well.

I really wonder how they plan to work this out.

As long as I am speculating, I guess that they could just number the stages and give divisions time slots on the various fields (e.g. Friday 9-11 Archimedes on 1, Curie on 2, Newton on 3, Galileo on Einstien, etc.).

I hope they don't go back to the bad old days and run us all over Walt's half acre -- scouting, staging, etc. would be a nightmare.

Joe J.

scoreFIRST
04-10-2002, 11:49 PM
As the person writing the software, I can answer definitively there will be four (4) divisions. Don't expect them to be named the same as the fields names, despite how it appears on the FIRST site. More information will be coming out soon...

BruceM

Joe Johnson
04-11-2002, 08:41 AM
As the person who writes FIRST's tourney software, would you please tell us how you randomize the seeding matches?

It seems to a lot of us that things don't seem so random. We often follow the same team for match after match.

I think that it is may be possible to get a fair random set of matches by dividing teams up into random groups and then randomly shuffling the groups to get your pairings, but I am not quite convinced that is what you are doing or that that would provide a random set of pairings in all cases.

So... ...would you mind sharing a bit of the though process you used to make up the matches.

Also, while I am asking, how many seeding rounds do you suppose each team will get?

Finally, how is FIRST going to split up the divisions? Is it going to be random or will they make sure that Kingman and Las Guerrillas are in different divisions (for example)?

Do tell...

Joe J.

AdamT
04-11-2002, 02:40 PM
One non-randomish thing I noticed at VCU:

Really veteran teams played ONLY with veteran teams. I believe at most, team 7 play in a match with a rookie team in it 3 times.

Rookie teams played with rookie teams, it was the exact same way for rookies...

The guys in the middle....they were the only one's who had a decent mix, but there's *our's* wasn't that good of a mix either...

Maybe it people trying to be fair, but that doesn't seem fair at all.

Jason Rudolph
04-11-2002, 04:05 PM
"(which will likely be HOT in late April -- I still shudder when I think back to the Finals of 1998. Brian Beatty & I were almost one drop of sweat away from heat stroke watching Teams #1 & #45 battling it out for king of the puck -- it was HOT). "

Well, as a warning to all, it is already quite hot down here, so be sure to bring that sunscreen, and drink LOTS of fluids, namely water, cause it's only going to get hotter over the next two weeks.

Kris Verdeyen
04-11-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by AdamT
Really veteran teams played ONLY with veteran teams. I believe at most, team 7 play in a match with a rookie team in it 3 times.

Rookie teams played with rookie teams, it was the exact same way for rookies...




Seemed to be the opposite for LSR. 118 and 16 (at least - those were the ones I checked) had no partner below the three hundreds. We also were never paired with the same team twice.

Joel J
04-11-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
As the person who writes FIRST's tourney software, would you please tell us how you randomize the seeding matches?

It seems to a lot of us that things don't seem so random. We often follow the same team for match after match.

I think that it is may be possible to get a fair random set of matches by dividing teams up into random groups and then randomly shuffling the groups to get your pairings, but I am not quite convinced that is what you are doing or that that would provide a random set of pairings in all cases.

So... ...would you mind sharing a bit of the though process you used to make up the matches.

Also, while I am asking, how many seeding rounds do you suppose each team will get?

Finally, how is FIRST going to split up the divisions? Is it going to be random or will they make sure that Kingman and Las Guerrillas are in different divisions (for example)?

Do tell...

Joe J. Am I right in saying that some randomness was sacrificed (if it existed at all) in order to ensure that a team's matches were evenly spread out?

Robocardgrl5
04-11-2002, 07:39 PM
On the FIRST site it has 4 divisions. They are at Archimedes, Curie, Galileo, and Newton. It says nothing about Einstein. just thought i'd let everyone know.

AdamT
04-11-2002, 09:42 PM
Read the thread in the rumor forum. The names of the divisions will not be the same as the field names.

scoreFIRST
04-11-2002, 10:40 PM
Joe (and friends;-)

No, this year, the match scheduling is definively not random. Unlike last year, secrecy is not needed, so we used a simple algorithm that yeilds a predictable but (usually) good schedule. I have always got my hand out looking for a better way of doing schedules. Let me lay out the schedule requirements first:

(1) All teams must play the same number of rounds (with the fewest number possible "extra" matches).

(2) A round (a set of matches where all teams play each other once) should basically be played to completion before the next round starts (this ensures that all teams play all day)

(3) For each team, the inter-match spacing between successive matches should be as large and as regular as possible. There MUST BE at least 3 matches between succesive plays (if possible)

(4) Teams should play with different partners as much as possible

(5) Teams should play with different opponents.

(6) Teams should play on different field positions through the day

-- and probably some more constraints.

This year, I create the schedule by splitting the field into 4 groups.
Imagine them arranged as columns. Each row then forms a match. I then rotate the second column by 1, the third column by 2, and (Surprise!) the fourth column by 3. Form the next matches and repeat.

There are a few more tricks in here. I have recently added an extra rotation step to help mix the lists when the number of teams (like 48) would yield a repeating schedule. Also, there is some trickyness on handling the end matches (when the number of teams are not evenly divisible by 4), but I think you get the idea here.

This results in a schedule that is pretty good, but not always perfect. It is very good at getting an even number of plays, and most of the time, making the inter-match spacing very even. With some numbers of teams, it yields repeated partners and opponents (Sorry) but this has been improved in week 5 of regionals. It is also non-random and the patern is discernable by observation.

After the schedule is formed, teams are randomly assigned into it. Sorry, conspiracy theorists, there is no checking to see if teams are vetrans or rookies -- just luck of the draw. My sincere apologies if the randomness went against you.

It would be possible to implement this in a random fashion, or maybe as a genetic algorithm, but so far, a good solution in this form has eluded me. Mostly, it is difficult to get the inter-match spacing large for all teams. Maybe someone out there wants to contribute one? :)

B.

Bill Enslen
04-11-2002, 10:43 PM
If you're curious about which division your team might be competing in at Nationals, check out my predictions on MOE's website: http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php

How did I arrive at these predictions? Regional Championship teams were assigned first, followed by all other teams. Teams in each group were assigned in order of their average QP's from all Regionals in which they competed, highest avg QP to lowest. I believe that this is how FIRST assigns teams, and if it isn't, it should be. It evenly distributes the regional champions as well as the best teams, etc.

Of course, I could be totally wrong ...

Jeff Rodriguez
04-11-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Bill Enslen
If you're curious about which division your team might be competing in at Nationals, check out my predictions on MOE's website: http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php

How did I arrive at these predictions? Regional Championship teams were assigned first, followed by all other teams. Teams in each group were assigned in order of their average QP's from all Regionals in which they competed, highest avg QP to lowest. I believe that this is how FIRST assigns teams, and if it isn't, it should be. It evenly distributes the regional champions as well as the best teams, etc.

Of course, I could be totally wrong ...
Last i heard 157 was also going to Nats. Since they won Philly, that might mess up you predictions. I didn't see them on your list

scoreFIRST
04-11-2002, 10:53 PM
As for divisions, here is today's news --

Fields are named according to famous inventors as is well known (Curie, Archemedes, Newton, Einstein)

Teams will play a rotating schedule across the fields, attempting to ensure that every team plays at least once on each field. This should keep us from roasting all day... but it will mean a lot of running and confusion. We are trying to make the rotations accur with logical daily breaks (lunch, etc). In the spirit of G.P., it seemed to be the fair thing to do to make everyone rotate instead of the alternatives of letting one Div roast on Einstein, or the alternative of having 3 "home" divisions and one "roaming" division. Be prepared, be informed.

Divisions will be named both after the inventors and a color. Turns out the awards are engraved with the names of the inventors before the rotation problem was recognized. IMHO, I would focus on the colors for the divisions to make it simple. The curent mapping is Curie Division = Yellow, Archemedes Division = Blue, Newton Division =Red, Einstein Division = (Green or White TBD).

Teams are assigned to divisions in a magical secret ceremony involving smoke from burning motors, WD-40, duck tape, and 4 sacrifical soccer balls. OK, its getting late. Seriously folks, FIRST makes assignments to ensure a hearty competiton. It is mostly random with some review to ensure that strong competitors and rookies are well distributed across the divisions. Maybe someday when we have an online FIRSTSTAR(tm) rating and a full set of comparitive match results, we could do something scientifically, but it is somewhere between random and heuristic methods now. Don't worry, be happy...

BruceM
:cool:

Bill Enslen
04-11-2002, 11:34 PM
You're right, Ogre, if 157 or any of the other Regional champion teams which were not signed up for Nats as of Monday DO get signed up, it will alter my predictions somewhat. All of the non-champion teams, however will still be in the same division. What will change is which division the champion teams will be in.

BruceM -- why don't you adopt a method like the one I used? Wouldn't it make the assignment process simpler and more fair to all at the same time? You've already got the data posted on FIRST's web site, that's where I got it. If you want to avoid the aggregation and the math, I can send you my spreadsheet with all the average QP's already calculated.

scoreFIRST
04-12-2002, 12:17 AM
I have carefully avoided the responsibility of doing the assignments myself, leaving that to FIRST staff to do (and absorb the flak) However, you are welcome to send the spreadsheet to me (and a text file with the methodology) and I will be glad to share this with the folks doing the work. I think their results and yours would be similar..

I am considering adding this functionality in future years. It will be an interesting discussion to decide if it should be based purely on regional performance, or if there should be some weighting based on home city/state/country (either keep together, or spread around), if we should normalize based on some factor of total regional performance, etc. Sounds like a job for Tim Jump/Fred Rose's team in MN). Should divisional assignments be retained over successive years? Lots of cool idea here, but in the big picture, quite frankly, if the strongest teams get well distributed, the rest could be assigned randomly and still have a good chance of being strong competitors. With a sufficiently larger number of teams, we have the law of large numbers on our side.

soap108
04-12-2002, 10:41 AM
pls send a copy of the spreadsheet to kenny@sigmacat.com
thanks.

Also, I'm wondering if their can be a check (someday) to evenly distribute goal-only teams and ball-only teams. Could you imagine if a "random" division existed where ALL of the robots were goal-only robots?

Also, someone asked about # of matches. Well, typically any given regional (or division) will play 120 matches (give or take). 120 X 4 / # teams = matches played.

So, EPCOT is slated for 292 teams / 4 divisions = 73 teams per division. 120 X 4 / 73 = 6.5 matches. So, maybe we'll all get to play in 7.

If all the stages move along like UTC, then maybe 8 or 9, but that'd be really pushing it...

(Bruce, pls correct if wrong)

KA-108 :cool:

p.s. glad to see you join the forum B.!

Madison
04-12-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Bill Enslen
If you're curious about which division your team might be competing in at Nationals, check out my predictions on MOE's website: http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php


My simple question - what happened to the teams numbered between 400 and 800??

Actually, even better, there's something wrong with the way that page is displaying information (at least, here at school, and maybe at my house), 'cause it lists our team info. for team number 398.

Hmm.

Bill Enslen
04-12-2002, 11:12 AM
Michael,
You're right, what's posted on the web site is messed up. I checked my original spreadsheet, and it's not the same. I'll ask our webmaster to fix it on Sunday. As an alternative, I've posted the original spreadsheet in the White Papers section.

Joe Johnson
04-12-2002, 12:02 PM
Bruce,

At the Chief Delphi Invitational, we (I) had to come up with some way of picking teams for the seeding matches.

Basically, I violated some of the constraints that you (Bruce) put up in order to get a better (in my view) set of pairings.

One thing I did was relax the contraint that every team had to play their Nth match before another any other team could play their (N+1)th match. Without relaxing this contraint, I always got to the end of a round of matches and was stuck with some pretty crumby pairings.

Here is what I replaced that contraint with: No team could play their (N+2)th match before every team played their Nth match. This gave the program the freedom to have teams play well paired matches at the end of a round of matches (though it does make the end of a round a but fuzzier to see because other than at the beginning and end of the seeding, there is never a point when every team has played the same number of matches).

Here is how I would pick the pairing:

For NNN = 1 to Nmatches

[list=1]
Find the set of all teams that have played the fewest number of matches*

Randomly pick from the above set assign it as Team1

Find the set of all teams that been Team1's partner the least often AND have not already played 2 more matches than Team1*

Randomly pick from the above set assign it as Team2

Find the set of all teams that have played against Team1 and Team2 least often AND have not already played 2 more matches than Team1*

Randomly pick from the above set assign it as Team3

Find the set of all teams that have played against Team1 and Team2 least often AND have partnered with Team3 least often AND have not already played 2 more matches than Team1*

Randomly pick from the above set assign it as Team4

[/list=1]
Next NNN

*If you want you can put other constraints here such as "not having played in the last 3 matches"

This process does not ASSURE good seeding round pairings but it is pretty good.

What I do after the seeding round is set is to compute some metrics that let me judge whether it is a good set of matches or not. For example I compute the number of times a team plays with or against the same team. If there are too many teams playing with or against the same teams too often, I hit the "recalculate" button and compute another set of pairings. You can also compute other things like how often a team has matches too close or whatever other criteria you like and, again, just keep hitting the recalculate button until you get there pairing configuration you like.

Anyway, in 6 years of Chief Delphi Invitationals, I have not had too many complaints.

Joe J.

scoreFIRST
04-12-2002, 04:42 PM
Joe --

I'll take a look at your scheduler in great detail after Chamionships. It looks very attractive. My previous attempt down this line was probably over-constrained. I was randomly selecting teams, but weighting them based on factors like how many times they have played. I like the method of allowing overlap between successive rounds. I don't suppose you have this implemented ;-) ? Can I peak at the code.

BTW, the software we are using to do scoring allows importing of schedules generated elsewhere, so it should be easy to use alternate scheduling for post season play..

BruceM

Perseus
04-12-2002, 09:20 PM
i am sorry, a little too lazy to read every reply.


in one sentence.....when will they announce the divisions



also, MOEs very own Bill Enslen has done some calculations to predict the divisions.(THEY ARE NOT OFFICIAL BUT BILL USED THE CALCULATIONG SYSTEM UED IN THE PAST)

MOE Predictions (http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php)

scoreFIRST
04-12-2002, 09:36 PM
K. -- You are correct in your calculation. It looks like 7 rounds would be a very good guess.

B.



So, EPCOT is slated for 292 teams / 4 divisions = 73 teams per division. 120 X 4 / 73 = 6.5 matches. So, maybe we'll all get to play in 7.

If all the stages move along like UTC, then maybe 8 or 9, but that'd be really pushing it...

(Bruce, pls correct if wrong)

KA-108 :cool:

soap108
04-12-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Perseus
i am sorry, a little too lazy to read every reply.


in one sentence.....when will they announce the divisions



also, MOEs very own Bill Enslen has done some calculations to predict the divisions.(THEY ARE NOT OFFICIAL BUT BILL USED THE CALCULATIONG SYSTEM UED IN THE PAST)

MOE Predictions (http://www.moerobotics.org/predict.php)

Basically,
Step 1. (still in progress, as far as i know) All teams that won regionals have to decide if they can attend. Some teams have not paid yet and are in danger of not being allowed to compete.
Step 2. Divide up the teams
Step 3. Announce the divisions.

KA-108

soap108
04-12-2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by scoreFIRST
As for divisions, here is today's news --

... Einstein Division = (Green or White TBD)....

BruceM
:cool:


Eric was saying there was difficulty in finding Green material for the Pit.... so probably White...maybe black. But ya never know.

KA-108

Joe Johnson
04-13-2002, 12:07 PM
Bruce,

I have implemented the code. I tried to make it general, but infact, I think I hardcoded a few places where I depended on either the number of matches being 24 or the number of teams being 24 or the matches being 2 on 2 on 2 (which was the last Chief Delphi Invitationals game format).

I think I have a 3 on 3 version as well, but again, I think I have hardcoded some items that should be variables.

It is not that I intentionally hard coded these options, I actually have variables defined for many of them, but I THINK that there are bugs that don't quite work right if the variable is changed. You know how it is, time was tight and I didn't have the time to beat on the code and find all the bugs for variable changes that I was not really planning on changing (at least that year).

We can talk off season about various random pairing strategies and what code I have or could generate or could get Nate to code for us.

Until then...

Joe J.

Nate Smith
04-13-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Joe Johnson
...or could get Nate to code for us.


The offer is there, for ScoreFIRST(Bruce and I have already discussed this somewhat, and it looks like part of my code is making it into the nationals version of the system this year), CDI, and anyone else who needs custom scoring...ask anyone from OCCRA if you need a reference...

Joe Johnson
04-13-2002, 05:19 PM
Hey Nate & Bruce,

If I/we wrote something to make random pairings for a general number of teams and a general number of matches, could we still get it inserted into the 2002 code?

If so, what would you need? Would it be enough to take in a list of X teams and put out a random, well-formed set of Y matches in a table?

I am game to try if it can still be put into practice this year. Otherwise, 2003 will have to be soon enough.

Joe J.

scoreFIRST
04-13-2002, 11:10 PM
Sure, I'm game to try. There are a couple of options...

We could use a loosely coupled approach -- I have an "Import Schedule" function that allows an externally generated schedule to come in -- I'll send you the format when I sit down on that computer again. Your schedule could then be standalone.

Alternatively, I could directly couple it into the VBA code behind the rest of the scoring system. It would take the number of teams and the number of rounds, and would return the number of matches and a 5 column table with rows consisting of a match number, and a team index (1 to numTeams) for each of the 4 positions. In the case of an extra match, I indicate this by making the team index negative. I will also send the exact call when I sit down with the software again. My code then picks up the table, gets a randomly ordered list of teams, and assigns them to matches based on the index values.

So, did I understand right that at ChiefDelphi you have done alternative pairings (2x2x2, etc) and game rules? What are your plans for this year?

B.