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Natchez
03-07-2005, 11:31 PM
You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Bluabot goes to cap the center goal that already has 1 red tetra on top of 4 blue tetras. While trying to cap the goal, the Bluateam "slinkys" the stack of tetras and descores the top 3 tetras by moving the apex connectors more than 6 inches from the supporting structure. Within seconds, Bluabot straightens the stack and caps it with their blue tetra. Soon after, the buzzer sounds and the center goal has 1 blue tetra on top of one red tetra on top of 4 blue tetras with no robots touching the tetras.

Based on the 2005 Game Rules (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Section_4-The_Game_rev_A.pdf), YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Cory
03-07-2005, 11:41 PM
Everytime this happened at Sacramento we scored them as if they had never been displaced.

I think the intent of the rules is that you don't knock a tetra off the goal, but the word of the rules conflicts with that.

dlavery
03-07-2005, 11:48 PM
If I understand the situation description correctly, then this one is simple. Blue owns the goal. The key is Question 1253, answered on Jan 24. As Blueabot recovers and restores the stack while still in the process of placing their original blue tetra on the stack (i.e. they have not left the stacked tetras in the precarious positions, and the tetras have not fallen to the floor), then they are OK.

Q&A: 1253 Section: 4.3.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/24/2005
Q: Is moving a tetra on a goal from a scored position to an unscored position still on the goal considered removing it? If you inadvertently do this while trying to score your own tetra, can you remedy it by repositioning the moved tetra?
A: If you displace a tetra from a stacked position to a "precarious" position, you have de-scored the tetra and will be penalized "if" you leave the tetra in this position. If you return the tetra to a stacked position in the process of stacking your own tetra, you will not be penalized. If the tetra falls completely off the goal, you will be penalized.

... and the next batter steps up to the plate..

-dave

Natchez
03-07-2005, 11:56 PM
... and the next batter steps up to the plate.
-dave
I thought ALL the smart people went to bed before 10:00 :D

One out and Casey is up to bat,
Lucien

dlavery
03-08-2005, 12:06 AM
I thought ALL the smart people went to bed before 10:00 :D


I do - 10:00 AM :D

-dave

Goobergunch
03-08-2005, 12:07 AM
I thought ALL the smart people went to bed before 10:00 :D

10:00 GMT, which is 5 AM Eastern. :p

*yawns and goes to bed anyway*

Max Lobovsky
03-08-2005, 12:10 AM
So extending that Q&A question, what would happen if a team entirely knocks some opponent tetras off a goal, then picks them up (or some other opponnents' tetras) and replaces them on the goal, then proceeds to cap with their own tetra? It's not very likely, but I think its important enough to consider.

dlavery
03-08-2005, 12:17 AM
So extending that Q&A question, what would happen if a team entirely knocks some opponent tetras off a goal, then picks them up (or some other opponnents' tetras) and replaces them on the goal, then proceeds to cap with their own tetra? It's not very likely, but I think its important enough to consider.

The same question, Q&A #1253, provides the answer. If it hits the floor, it is considered "descored" no matter what you do with it. If the tetra that hit the floor belonged to your opponent, then they now own the goal.

-dave

Steve W
03-08-2005, 05:45 AM
Oh Dave you are sooo smart. It helps when you are the rule maker. At least we getcorrect answers. ;)

Travis Hoffman
03-08-2005, 06:06 AM
I thought ALL the smart people went to bed before 10:00 :D

One out and Casey is up to bat,
Lucien

I thought all the old people did too.....:p

So say the blue team descores some stacked red tetras and they fall to the ground. The 3-points for each red descored tetra now belong to the red team, along with ownership of the goal. Are the fallen red tetras now fair game for the red team to stack and score elsewhere? If so, I assume, then, that if they place them on the same goal they were stacked on originally, each tetra now represents 6 points each - 3 for being part of the original descored stack, and 3 for being a part of the new one - weird concept.

Who is responsible for making a mental note of of the snapshot of how many red tetras were stacked before they were descored? Unless there were refs dedicated to watching one or a small group of the goals all the time (which may be the case), it seems like it would be difficult for the refs given the fast pace of the match to accurately document the stack conditions prior to descoring so they can take them into account during the final score tally.

One final thing. If the refs aren't certain of those conditions at match end, would this be a situation where instant replay could be put to good use?

Pat Major
03-08-2005, 07:15 AM
A: If you displace a tetra from a stacked position to a "precarious" position, you have de-scored the tetra and will be penalized "if" you leave the tetra in this position. If you return the tetra to a stacked position in the process of stacking your own tetra, you will not be penalized. If the tetra falls completely off the goal, you will be penalized.

I hate to nitpick but this happened.

In the final match of the finals at FLR a robot was speeding PAST the center goal his arm hit the tetras and descored some of them. The robot was not in the act of trying to score a tetra he was just quickly moving across the field. If he had time could he have turned around (by now he is 15 feet away from the goal) driven back to the goal reseated the tetras and not lost ownership of the goal? Would the robot have to go get one of his tetras and use it to rescore the descored tetras, so he would be " in the process of stacking your own tetra"? The Referees took what has been called "the longest time in FIRST" to make the call. We all sat with our cameras in hand knowing what the proper call should be. In this case the proper call was finally made. It sure seems like the use of a replay would be helpful to the referees.

Denman
03-08-2005, 07:21 AM
10:00 GMT, which is 5 AM Eastern. :p

*yawns and goes to bed anyway* yeah because the daily update is at 10:47 gmt so they are allowed to sleep for 10 minutes whilst the update happens here :p
i'm in class before most of you go to bed the night before lol....

Stu Bloom
03-08-2005, 09:04 AM
... The Referees took what has been called "the longest time in FIRST" to make the call. We all sat with our cameras in hand knowing what the proper call should be. In this case the proper call was finally made. It sure seems like the use of a replay would be helpful to the referees.So what was "the proper call"? It seems to me that the rules are fairly clear on this one ...

Paul Copioli
03-08-2005, 10:49 AM
This happened to us a few times at FLR on Friday. While trying to score, we dislodged our opponents tetra to a precarious position (not on the floor). We immediately repositioned our opponents tetra and scored ours. We received the points for our tetra and, if it was on top at the end, we received ownership. In this case, the goal goes to blue.

Pat Major
03-08-2005, 12:14 PM
So what was "the proper call"? It seems to me that the rules are fairly clear on this one ...

The proper call was, the team that descored lost control of the goal. My question is a "what if" they wanted to regain control of the goal, could they? Can you go back to a goal that you have descored at a latter time in the match, try to score a tetra, reseating the descored tetras, and regain the goal? You would be "in the process of stacking your own tetra". It seems like the answer should be yes, but I do not think this is within the intent of the rule.

Rick TYler
03-08-2005, 02:00 PM
Just to defend my rules-reading honor, I voted for red because I thought the YMTC scenario said the tetras fell off completely. If I could change my vote I would...