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View Full Version : YMTC: Redabot "Clangs" Tetras Together


Natchez
03-09-2005, 03:02 AM
You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Redabot receives a tetra from their human player. While maneuvering around robots to get to a goal, Redabot accidentally bumps a tetra on the autoloader with the tetra that it is carrying. When the two tetras "clang" together, Redabot is not in a loading zone and has not made contact with another robot.

Based on the 2005 Game Rules (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Section_4-The_Game_rev_A.pdf), YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Kyle
03-09-2005, 06:44 AM
I do not think there is a penalty for that. If the team is on its way to a goal and is clearly not going for the auto loader then it should be a mistake, no penalty given, But it will all be up to the refs point of view on those kinds of calls.

Rombus
03-09-2005, 10:40 AM
i think as long as it did not knock the tetra off, no pentalty.

Tim Delles
03-09-2005, 10:52 AM
<S05> A ROBOT may not impede the placement of TETRAS on the loading structures or the hand-off of a
TETRA by a HUMAN PLAYER to a ROBOT. No HUMAN PLAYER or field attendant may be accosted by
a ROBOT while placing TETRAS. Violations will result immediate disabling of the offending ROBOT, and
disqualification of the alliance. ~ from the revised edition of The Game

I would not give out a penalty, as long as it look as if there intention was not to get another tetra from the auto-loader. however after the match i would be sure to go and explain to them to be more careful the next time.

Wetzel
03-09-2005, 11:06 AM
Field attendants will place TETRAS on the Tetra Loading Stations on the side of the field opposite the HUMAN PLAYERS (i.e. the “automated” LOADING ZONE). A ROBOT must enter the corresponding LOADING ZONE to retrieve the TETRA from the Loading Station, and enter it into play. If a robot touches a Loading Station tetra before it is in the LOADING ZONE, the offending alliance will be assessed a 10-point penalty and the tetra will not be scored. The HUMAN PLAYER does not have to leave the pressure pad sensor during this operation. When the TETRA is removed from the Loading Station and the ROBOT has left the LOADING ZONE, the field attendant will place a new TETRA on the Loading Station at the first safe opportunity. Robots may not intentionally interfere with field attendant’s efforts to place TETRAS on the Loading Stations.

Bolded the appropriate section. -10 points

Wetzel

Adam Richards
03-09-2005, 11:09 AM
And this raises the philisophical question, "Did the bullet kill the person, or did the person kill the person?"

Technically the ROBOT did not touch the loading station Tetra (or as some may say, Tetram). Rather, a tetra that the robot just happened to be holding hit the loading station tetra.

Alan Anderson
03-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Technically the ROBOT did not touch the loading station Tetra (or as some may say, Tetram). Rather, a tetra that the robot just happened to be holding hit the loading station tetra.

I didn't notice anything in the rules this year that explicitly considers a held tetra to be an extension of the robot. That surprises me. Still, there's ample precedent for awarding the penalty to the robot causing the undesired contact, even if that robot itself never touched the forbidden object.

Elgin Clock
03-09-2005, 12:22 PM
I didn't notice anything in the rules this year that explicitly considers a held tetra to be an extension of the robot.
Is a tetra required for weigh in?
Is a tetra required for size check?
Is the tetra you hold required to be "in profile" at the start of the match?

Answer to all 3. No.

If a robot touches a Loading Station tetra before it is in the LOADING ZONE, the offending alliance will be assessed a 10-point penalty
A robot is clearly defined in The Robot section of the manual, and no where does it define a required component on your robot to be a tetra.
Therefore, as per those criteria, and the definition of a robot as defined in The Robot section of the manual, My vote is no. No penalty.

UNLESS.. The team consistently tries to pick up a tetra on the automated loading station using another tetra that it is carrying as a pick up device, and thus is not in the loading area.

Then, a sub rule would have to be written either not allowing that or "bending" the rules for teams who try to use that as a strategy.
My guess though, is that the strategy would no be allowed.

Incidental touching of another tetra on the automated loading station with one you are already holding should be OK, but maybe a warning about it given when it happens so it is made clear that it is not an allowable strategy unless you are in the loading zone.

Ricksta
03-09-2005, 12:42 PM
Elgin I respect your efforts, but it is a penalty. Heres why:

When a human player loads a tetra onto a robot, if there is another tetra already on it, they cannot touch that tetra because it is an extension of the robot.

ID:1789 Section:4.1 Status:Answered Date Answered:3/4/2005 Q:If the HP is placing a 2nd tetra onto the robot would they get penalized if part of their body touched the tetra that is already on the robot?A:Yes, the tetra is now considered an extension of the robot.

If you had a defensive robot, and it hit an opposing robot in a loading zone with a tetra in its grasp, or on the floor, it is considered an extension of the robot. See example 5 in update 4.

If a robot was to take a tetra on its arm, and push high on a robot with and it fell over...a dq would occur.

All of this shows that a tetra in control or on a robot is considered part of it.

THINK OF IT THIS WAY: (this is funny i think)
Say I pick up a bat and start spinning in circles moving around while I do it. You are sitting quietly sipping water and I smack the drink out of your hand. Who do you blame the bat or me, the crazy guy with the bat?

In this situation, the I am the robot and the bat is a tetra. The bat is an extension of me just like a tetra is an extension of the robot. It could be accidental it could not, but either way if I smack you with a bat (or knock a tetra off the loader) I get in trouble (or the robot gets a ten point flag).:)

Ryan M.
03-09-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm going to have to say penalty on this one. I don't have a specific rule to back it up, but here's a reason for my call: The rule that you have to leave the loading zone before getting another tetra only works if you entered the zone in the first place. I believe that actions should be called consistently, so if you allow a "tetra nock" to legally get a tetra from the loading station, you've allowed the teams to circumvent the rule.

--EDIT--
Sorry if this repeats something someone else has said. I started it this morning, but then I had to go to school... :)

Rombus
03-09-2005, 01:54 PM
Wait wait wait, IS the tetra comming off the autoloader or is it staying on?

If it stays on: no penalty
if it comes off: penality

Alan Anderson
03-09-2005, 02:56 PM
Is a tetra required for weigh in?
Is a tetra required for size check?
Is the tetra you hold required to be "in profile" at the start of the match?
A tetra is obviously not "part of" a robot. Neither was a First Frenzy doubler ball last year, but it was still considered an "extension of" the robot while it was being carried. It looks like Q&A 1789 gives a tetra similar status this year.
Wait wait wait, IS the tetra comming off the autoloader or is it staying on?
It doesn't matter. The rule says a robot may not touch the tetra at the Loading Station unless the robot is in the Loading Zone. Whether or not the tetra leaves the Loading Station due to the touch is not relevant to the penalty.

JohnnyB
03-09-2005, 03:17 PM
I'm gonna have to go with penalty. Even if its unintentional, it still happened. Your control of the robot, and the robot itself, is responsible for the "bump" itself

Brandon Holley
03-09-2005, 03:22 PM
Even if the intent of the robot wasnt to dislodge the tetra from the loader, it is STILL a penalty.

Whether it stays on the loader, or falls off, its the same penalty because the rule specifically states TOUCHES a loading zone tetra.

I'd say its just an unfortunate penalty that the team would have to endur.

Goldeye
03-09-2005, 04:03 PM
If there is no reason to think the team is trying to hit that tetra, and it either falls out of play or stays normally on the autoloader, it should not be a penalty. If the tetra falls into play, it has to be called a penalty. It has consistantly been said that slight accidents will not be punished; a robot got bumped slightly (was not moved at all) while in the loading zone during elim rounds at peachtree, and there was no penalty. There's your precedent.

Wetzel
03-09-2005, 04:09 PM
If there is no reason to think the team is trying to hit that tetra, and it either falls out of play or stays normally on the autoloader, it should not be a penalty. If the tetra falls into play, it has to be called a penalty. It has consistantly been said that slight accidents will not be punished; a robot got bumped slightly (was not moved at all) while in the loading zone during elim rounds at peachtree, and there was no penalty. There's your precedent.

Robot-robot contact is diffrent then what we are talking about here and precendent does not change the rules. We are discussing a situation and the result based upon the rules as written.

In any event, here are the rules regarding your situation. See G15 and Update 4.
A ROBOT may not interfere with an opposing ROBOT while any part of the opposing ROBOT is touching its LOADING ZONE and the ROBOT is in the process of retrieving/receiving a TETRA. It is intended that TETRAS be introduced into play as rapidly as the alliance ROBOTS are able to retrieve and utilize them. Violations will result in a 30-point penalty (i.e. three 10-point penalty flags will be thrown) to the offending alliance.

Example 3 Robot "BLUE01" is in the red alliance loading zone, blocking access to the zone. Robot "RED01" approaches the loading zone to retrieve a tetra. BLUE01 decides to move out of the way. As RED01 enters the loading zone, BLUE01 is leaving the zone, and they lightly contact each other. RED01 then retrieves the tetra. No penalty is assessed to either alliance, because only incidental contact occurred, and BLUE01 did not interfere with the RED01 efforts to retrieve the tetra.