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KathieK
01-05-2006, 02:24 PM
Greetings Teams:

Advance Materials List

The Engineering Department is pleased to announce the availability of the Advance Materials List for the 2006 competition. Please go to http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/AdvanceBuy_2006_r4.pdf for full details.

This list contains common materials required to build the team versions of the field elements for the 2006 competition.

Kickoff Tip!

If you are attending a Kickoff, there will be a lot of items to pick up. In addition to two large plastic totes there will be six (6) boxes of varying size. It will be difficult for only one person to carry all these items. We highly recommend you bring a two-wheel dolly to help transport your KOP!

Kit of Parts - Modeled in Autodesk Inventor!

Autodesk is modeling the Kit of Parts in Autodesk Inventor for all the teams to use, free of charge. The parts will be available on Autodesk Streamline after the Kickoff event. Using these parts will save you critical time!

Below are log in instructions and requirements for Autodesk Streamline:

Autodesk Streamline URL:

http://projectpoint.buzzsaw.com/client/FIRST

User Name: (public) IMPORTANT: You must use the parentheses around the word public.

No password is required to access this public site.

Autodesk Streamline System Requirements:
The following recommendations apply to Autodesk Streamline.
Intel® Pentium® II-based processor, 450 MHz or higher (266 MHz minimum)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional, Windows 2000 (SP2 or later), or Windows NT® 4.0 (SP6 or later)
256 MB RAM (128 MB minimum)
70 MB free disk space
1024x768 display or higher
Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.01 or later
DSL, cable modem, or better Internet connection
Go Teams!

Joe Johnson
01-05-2006, 02:35 PM
Okay, I have been silent but now I must speak.

The field includes a ramp like this /T\ where the / and the \ are polycarb covered 4X8 sheets of plywood and the T is a diamond plate 4X8 sheet of plywood.

I have not inside knowledge, but it just seem to me that that is the most likely configuration given the stuff on the advanced buy list.

This is just a guess, but I just might be right.

Joe J.

Vince lau
01-05-2006, 02:40 PM
so kinda like the stack attack ramp..hmmm

Steve W
01-05-2006, 02:41 PM
Close Joe but I believe that it will be \_/ . When one team tips it down the other side will rise. :rolleyes:

Elgin Clock
01-05-2006, 02:42 PM
OK, I'll be the first one to say that the only thing on that list that really stumps me is the Luan.

Luan is definitely non-structural.
http://www.ply.in/luan-plywood.htm


Maybe that is some sort of fencing like the lexan was in 2003?

Collin Fultz
01-05-2006, 02:46 PM
The following items are the same from last year:
1/4" x 4' x 8' Plywood (more this year though)
1/2" x 4' x 8' Plywood (more)
1" x 3" x 8' Lumber (more)
1" x 5" x 8"(? i think they mean ft here...maybe not though) Lumber (same if in = ft for this one)
2" x 3" x 8' Lumber (more)

I think all that 2x4 looks similar to what 2003 or even 2004 with a raised surface and steps :ahh: . 17 pieces of 2x4? that has to be to build a floor or something similar.

Let the games begin.

MikeDubreuil
01-05-2006, 02:47 PM
Can someone help me out here... is Luan a misspelling of Lauan?

Justin Stiltner
01-05-2006, 02:49 PM
I agree that we probally have some sort of ramp, but the plywood numbers dont quite make sense to me.. the 1/2" plywoold should work as decking of a ramp, but why include the 3/4" ?
unless there is another structure that must be stronger than the 1/2" :confused: Like others have said the luan is not structural, but neither is 1/4" plywood... robots could easily break that if contacted.
But also keep in mind these materials usually include some sort of half wall for the operators to stand behind as well as supports for it, so all of this most likely will not be going on the field... maby one of the 1/2" sheets is used for that. Also the pratice field they spec out usually is only half if that of the field.
a

Elgin Clock
01-05-2006, 02:50 PM
Can someone help me out here... is Luan a misspelling of Lauan?

Mike, I have no idea what you are referring to, but maybe?
http://miniatures.about.com/od/glossary/g/luanplywd.htm

Also, I'm willing to bet that this is not the BOM for the entire field.
Maybe half, if that even.

MikeDubreuil
01-05-2006, 02:53 PM
Mike, I have no idea what you are referring to, but maybe?
http://miniatures.about.com/od/glossary/g/luanplywd.htm

Also, I'm willing to bet that this is not the BOM for the entire field.
Maybe half, if that even.
Now that you showed me that I think we are referring to the same product that has many working names.

Collin Fultz
01-05-2006, 02:55 PM
Now that you showed me that I think we are referring to the same product that has many working names.

deffinately don't just do a google search for "luan"

not exactly FIRST friendly

Elgin Clock
01-05-2006, 02:57 PM
deffinately don't just do a google search for "luan"

not exactly FIRST friendly

LOL Someone has "safe search" turned off? :rolleyes:

Kevin Kolodziej
01-05-2006, 02:58 PM
When I first looked at the list, I thought the polycarb and diamond plate were for the player stations...but that may not be the case. There's a LOT of lumber here...156' of 2x4. Does anyone have the list from 2003 of how much lumber was needed for that ramp?

I am betting on either 4 sided ramp or, relating to the clue, a pentagular ramp with the luan as the top perhaps.

We wont' see a crash and bash like 2003, so there must be something on top of this structure as well...OR...

It may be similar to an idea I had last year with a platform 2-3' off the ground and space UNDER it for robots...game objects would have to be placed on TOP of the platform. In my game, those objects were traffic cones. Don't think we'll see those...but we'll see.

Kev

Collin Fultz
01-05-2006, 02:59 PM
LOL Someone has "safe search" turned off? :rolleyes:

it says "Moderate Safe Search is ON"

:eek:

Ryan Foley
01-05-2006, 03:01 PM
What I find interesting is the additional "6 boxes of varying size". In past years, these were the compressor for rookie/2nd year teams, and the kit chassis, but everyone has 6 additional boxes? This could be interesting.

Kevin: the parts lists for wood fields for 2003 and 2004 are uploaded to this post, from the looks of it, this years advance list calls for significantly more lumber than either year.

Don Wright
01-05-2006, 03:01 PM
I'm so disapppointed. No toilet bowl flanges or magnets to throw everyone into wild speculation.

Since it says the lexan is needed to perfectly replicate the field, I'm guessing it's just for a side wall off some platform to stop robots from falling off and getting damaged like they did on the side of the ramp for Stack Attack 2003...

Elgin Clock
01-05-2006, 03:02 PM
it says "Moderate Safe Search is ON"

:eek:

"Luan plywood" is a much better result.. I'll attach an image to keep everyone safe.

Constructed from Luan:

http://www.esper.com/xvart/images/ahhouse02.jpghttp://www.esper.com/xvart/images/ahhouse04.jpg

Collin Fultz
01-05-2006, 03:04 PM
Any other thoughts on that 1" x 5" by 8?

I'm pretty sure it means feet not inches.

KarenH
01-05-2006, 03:04 PM
When I first looked at the list, I thought the polycarb and diamond plate were for the player stations...but that may not be the case.

Kev
The list is for building "field elements"--so I doubt it includes the player stations and side rails. It definitely sounds like ramp & platform stuff.

Justin Stiltner
01-05-2006, 03:07 PM
the players station was part of the construction in 2004 when there was an opening in the players station for the balls to go thru, it was only 2' or so tall and 4' long, but it was included in the materials list.

Conor Ryan
01-05-2006, 03:11 PM
Just for those of you who are going to buy some of these items, from personal experince I had great difficulty getting someone at multiple stores to even know what a carriage bolt is, I talked to at least 20 people and nobody was able to figure it out. So I hope this makes it a little easier to find at the store or your shop, heres a picture of a carriage bolt:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50327255/Carriage_Bolt.jpg
The list asks for 8, 3/8-16 x 4 carriage bolts

Manoel
01-05-2006, 03:13 PM
I also agree that there will be some kind of raised structure with all that wood in the BOM. I believe the aluminum diamond plate is more for decorative purposes than anything else, and the polycarbonate will be used as in 2004, when it was the flooring material under the bar - slippery!
With two poly sheets that big, I'm guessing there will be two raised structures or a very big one.
Two days left :D

Vince lau
01-05-2006, 03:14 PM
lets say the polycarbonate is used for a ramp of some sort, why would they used polycarbonate instead of HDPE or something else, unless we need to see throught the ramp.

Or maybe its some sort of polycarboate wall

MikeDubreuil
01-05-2006, 03:15 PM
I think that the Luan will be used for the bottom of a scoring goal. The sides will be made with the 1/8" polycarbonate. This will be held in the air above the ramp with all the lumber.

1075master
01-05-2006, 03:18 PM
has anyone tried the virtual KOP? the blast says theres a vitrual KOP but when i go there threre is nothing in the file!!

Mike Betts
01-05-2006, 03:22 PM
has anyone tried the virtual KOP? the blast says theres a vitrual KOP but when i go there threre is nothing in the file!!

The parts will be available on Autodesk Streamline after the Kickoff event.

Like the rest of us, you will have to wait until Saturday...

Mike

1075master
01-05-2006, 03:24 PM
lol i was just reading that and was about to change my post..

team222badbrad
01-05-2006, 03:25 PM
No Casters? :(

I say ramp, I want a ramp!

Cough, Cough, GUM RUBBER! ;)

MikeL303
01-05-2006, 03:31 PM
i am wondering what FIRST will really use for this field.

Ian Curtis
01-05-2006, 03:32 PM
What if the ramp didn't look like /T\ but instead looked like )T(?

Hmm, well the parathases didn't work it right, but it would be more like a quarter pipe on either side of a flat platform.

Ryan Foley
01-05-2006, 03:36 PM
What about multiple ramps, maybe elevated goals in the corners or something, like the Vex game for this year. That could make things interesting.

Andrew Blair
01-05-2006, 03:39 PM
I was thinking the same thing actually. The )T( thing would be a pain in the hiney to get up on though, if you really think about it.

Joe Johnson
01-05-2006, 03:39 PM
... I believe the aluminum diamond plate is more for decorative purposes than anything else...


I don't think so. If it was just decoration, I think that they wouldn't put in on the list. There must be some significant interaction with the aluminum plate or they would just do what they did two years ago with the risers for the chin-up bar -- have folks make the practice field out of something esle.

Also, they must plan on the 4X8 sheet being used whole. Even at 1/16 thick, I think cutting this plate in half would be more than many teams could accomplish without some pretty ragged edges.

Joe J.

Peter Matteson
01-05-2006, 03:40 PM
There are a LOT of 2x4s here 17 8ft long each and 2 10 footers. If this is half a field like in previous years this is big. Also I don't think FIRST would use 1/8 polycarb for a ramp as mentioned. It's too thin for safety. I'm thinking transparent scoring column of some sort.

I figure the 4 3/4" plywood sheets are load bearing platforms, the 2 1/4" are a player station and the 1/2" is either a wall or platform that sees lower impact.

I have to say after last year's move to simple set up and low cost I'm kind shocked at how extensive this is.

Pete

MattB703
01-05-2006, 03:42 PM
Cough, Cough, GUM RUBBER! ;)


Shhhh It's a secret. ;)

:D

ScottM
01-05-2006, 03:43 PM
There's something missing......green paint

Andrew Blair
01-05-2006, 03:46 PM
Also, they must plan on the 4X8 sheet being used whole. Even at 1/16 thick, I think cutting this plate in half would be more than many teams could accomplish without some pretty ragged edges.

Joe J.

In the pdf, it specifically states that smaller sheets are available from Homedepot. If an intact full sheet was needed, they wouldn't point us to a place to buy smaller pieces. However, it may be somesort of flooring, in which smaller pieces would not make a difference. I bet that the flooring on part of the field is diomond plate.

Collin Fultz
01-05-2006, 03:52 PM
In the pdf, it specifically states that smaller sheets are available from Homedepot. If an intact full sheet was needed, they obviously wouldn't point us to a place to buy smaller pieces. However, it may be somesort of flooring, in which smaller pieces would not make a difference. I bet that the flooring on part of the field is diomond plate.

I think what he's saying is that wherever the diamond plate is, it will be a 4 x 8 area.

the reason they point you to a place to buy smaller sheets is because not everybody lives in an area near a diamond plate retailer. but home depot is everywhere.

one thing i noticed that isn't there...mailboxes :confused:

Peter Matteson
01-05-2006, 03:54 PM
Does the AL plate strike anyone else as the $58 item from the other thread given original price of $110?

jerry w
01-05-2006, 03:59 PM
with only 8 carriage bolts the primary structure could not be vary large. ramps need bolts to hold them together.
we have a lot of nails, which are needed to put together several smaller objects.

jerry w

MikeDubreuil
01-05-2006, 04:02 PM
Does the AL plate strike anyone else as the $58 item from the other thread given original price of $110?
I agree, it is quite a suspicious candidate. It definitely sounds like the Washington FIRST guy was able to cut a deal with a local metal supply shop. I also agree with Dr. J, this aluminum will be used intact and not cut.

Manoel
01-05-2006, 04:06 PM
I don't think so. If it was just decoration, I think that they wouldn't put in on the list. There must be some significant interaction with the aluminum plate or they would just do what they did two years ago with the risers for the chin-up bar -- have folks make the practice field out of something esle.

Also, they must plan on the 4X8 sheet being used whole. Even at 1/16 thick, I think cutting this plate in half would be more than many teams could accomplish without some pretty ragged edges.

Joe J.

Yes, quite possibly. I like this new theory of aluminum and polycarbonate flooring better than my old one!

Andrew Blair
01-05-2006, 04:07 PM
with only 8 carriage bolts the primary structure could not be vary large. ramps need bolts to hold them together.


I don't know how the 2003 ramp was put together, but there are a whole bunch of screws in the materials list. My guess is, the carriage bolts hold the AL plate on and the structure is screwed together. Or, the structure is screwed together, and the carraige bolts are in a few places to allow easy takedown of the field.

However, aren't there better bolts than carriage for attaching something like that diamond plate?

Joe Johnson
01-05-2006, 04:09 PM
Does anyone know if the diamond plate in the spec sheet 3003-H22/24-TP looks like this:

http://www.beacongraphics.com/images/diamond-plate-10.jpg

or does it look like this:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/aluminum/treadsquaresheet.gif

The difference in terms of traction is night and day.

Just wondering.

Joe J.

Conor Ryan
01-05-2006, 04:12 PM
Heres the list of the 2005 Field Elements for comparison http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/2005_Field_Elements_Materials_r9.pdf however its the post kickoff edition, so ignore the stuff in Bold and you have a similar hint.

Overall the field is cheaper per item in the 05 game, however there were more parts. So could we see multiple ramps assembled this year? Maybe 3 ramps, stretch accross the field?

Mike Schroeder
01-05-2006, 04:14 PM
maybe lavery and the GDC are enforcing the rule of no fasteners even upon themselves

btw, Luan is a Moisture resistant plywood generally used as an underlayment between flooring and a subfloor in damp places. Yes, working in Lumber at the Home Depot has taught me a few things, like Luan is very flexible like can be used to make mailboxes....

team222badbrad
01-05-2006, 04:14 PM
Shhhh It's a secret. ;)

:D

Secret?

We have been using it since the 2003 ramp!

Oh, BTW I have 06 wheels designed, thats if we need them, well we are gonna use them anyway.... :yikes:

JohnBoucher
01-05-2006, 04:19 PM
1/8" polycarbonate won't stand up to robots banging up against it.

Peter Matteson
01-05-2006, 04:20 PM
Does anyone know if the diamond plate in the spec sheet 3003-H22/24-TP looks like this:

http://www.beacongraphics.com/images/diamond-plate-10.jpg

or does it look like this:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/aluminum/treadsquaresheet.gif

The difference in terms of traction is night and day.

Just wondering.

Joe J.

It's the first by the looks of this.
http://www.starlitho.co.uk/treadplate.htm

Dave Flowerday
01-05-2006, 04:21 PM
There must be some significant interaction with the aluminum plate or they would just do what they did two years ago with the risers for the chin-up bar -- have folks make the practice field out of something esle.
Of course, the double asterisk indicates that teams can substitute something else... I'm wondering if they're responding to complaints about the advance BOM being the low-cost version of the field, when some teams would prefer to build the real thing.

Tom Bottiglieri
01-05-2006, 04:25 PM
What if the ramp didn't look like /T\ but instead looked like )T(?

Hmm, well the parathases didn't work it right, but it would be more like a quarter pipe on either side of a flat platform.
Lauan is know for being a very light type of wood, which is very easy to bend and shape. We've used the stuff to make light, easy to move walls for stage productions at school. I can't wait to see what the Lauan and diamond plate will be used for.

Happy Kickoff!

Rich Wong
01-05-2006, 04:25 PM
WOW! :eek:

This looks like building material for a house!!!!!!!

I can build a 10-ft wall and several platforms and ramp.

(remember- this is just the Team (home) version of the field competitions. There maybe several 10-ft walls at the real field).
:D

Justin Stiltner
01-05-2006, 04:27 PM
I think the carriage bolts are used to hold 2 of the 2" lumber together, it would be hard to tighten the carriage bolts if they were used to hold the tread AL down, unless you can make a square hole, but at 4" long, 2 pieces of 2 " lumber would be 3" to 3.5" wide plenty of space for a washer and nut under the head, also in 2004 the uprights that held the bar were held on with similar types of bolts, in an application like that screws are normally not enough.

Just as an aside to the AL tread plate, to cut something that big you could use a jig saw with a metal cutting blade and plenty of lubricant(wd-40) we did this to make our crate from that material.

sanddrag
01-05-2006, 04:31 PM
Just for those of you who are going to buy some of these items, from personal experince I had great difficulty getting someone at multiple stores to even know what a carriage bolt is, I talked to at least 20 people and nobody was able to figure it out.All I can say to that is OMG. They need to fire those idiots. If someone doesn't know what a carriage bolt is, they have no business working in a hardware store IMHO. You'd think they'd at least make them take a basic hardware knowledge test before hiring them to work in a hardware store. I once encountered an employee in the plumbing department of my LHS who didn't know what a PVC pipe cap was. As a person who visits a hardware multiple times each week, it is sad to see the quality of service degrading faster than a, uh, oh um, landslide.

blue_crew
01-05-2006, 04:33 PM
what if it is a triangular platform with ramps coming off of the three sides. some kind of goal/bar would be above the platform.
two of the ramps' plywood would be covered with lexan (4'x8'), the third ramp covered with aluminum tread(4'x8').
this idea could be modified for a truncated pyramid also.
2 ramps would be lexan coated, another would be aluminum tread, and the 4th be just plywood...

Conor Ryan
01-05-2006, 04:34 PM
It's the first by the looks of this.
http://www.starlitho.co.uk/treadplate.htm

Just so everyone knows, the 3003 refers to the Alluminum Alloy (commonly called Bright Aluminum), the H22 and H24 is the Temper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering)(heat treatment technique) and the TP refers to the Tread Plate (offical name for diamond plate)

yeah to verify that some more, http://www.astecuk.com/aluminium_rolled_prod.html
lists their DIAMONDBITE TREADPLATE ALLOY 3003-H22 to be like
http://www.astecuk.com/images/aluminium_rollled/diamondbrite.gif


however, http://fzxrangxrn.en.alibaba.com/product/50100143/50446835/Aluminum_Tread_Plate_Coil/Aluminum_Tread_Plate___Coil.html (http://www.astecuk.com/aluminium_rolled_prod.html)
lists their 3003 H24 to be like
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50446835/Aluminum_Tread_Plate___Coil.jpg

so does the manufacturer change what kind of treads the tread plate has? The two options you see here are Diamond or Quintet (5-Bar) patterns

Tom Bottiglieri
01-05-2006, 04:37 PM
Lauan is a cheaper alternative to standard plywood, and you need 2 sheets of quarter inch thick 4x8' of either material.

My guess: These 2 sheets will not be driven on, or have enough support under them from the 16 million 2x4's in the BOM so that the strength of the material won't hamper its ability to be driven on by 130 lb robots.

Therefore, teams can 'cheap' out and save a few bucks by going with lauan. This fields going be expensive enough, and I think FIRST is trying to cut us as many breaks as possible.

sanddrag
01-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Just so everyone knows, the 3003 refers to the Alluminum Alloy, the H22 and H24 is the Temper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering)(heat treatment technique) and the TP refers to the Tread Plate (offical name for diamond plate)

yeah to verify that some more, http://www.astecuk.com/aluminium_rolled_prod.html
lists their DIAMONDBITE TREADPLATE ALLOY 3003-H22 to be like
http://www.astecuk.com/images/aluminium_rollled/diamondbrite.gif


however, http://fzxrangxrn.en.alibaba.com/product/50100143/50446835/Aluminum_Tread_Plate_Coil/Aluminum_Tread_Plate___Coil.html (http://www.astecuk.com/aluminium_rolled_prod.html)
lists their 3003 H24 to be like
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50446835/Aluminum_Tread_Plate___Coil.jpg

so does the manufacturer change what kind of treads the tread plate has? Hmm
Typically, I believe the upper one is just called "diamond plate" and the lower one is called "5 bar tread plate" (no reference to diamonds) I'm guessing it is the upper one. Those are the two most common styles and probably the only two carried by Home Depot. Any other styles are probably not it. I'm no even sure if Home Depot carries the 5 bar. I'm thinking is will be just your standard diamond plate.

Conor Ryan
01-05-2006, 04:46 PM
Typically, I believe the upper one is just called "diamond plate" and the lower one is called "5 bar tread plate" (no reference to diamonds) I'm guessing it is the upper one. Those are the two most common styles and probably the only two carried by Home Depot. Any other styles are probably not it. I'm no even sure if Home Depot carries the 5 bar. I'm thinking is will be just your standard diamond plate.

heres the problem with that,

.063 in x 48 in. x 96 in. 3003-H22/24 TP
aluminum tread plate (diamond plate)


Could that be tread plate, as in the more accepted name of diamond plate, or tread plate saying theres a Quintet (5-Bar) Tread pattern. Instead of a Diamond Pattern, or is (Diamond Plate) refering to the tread pattern? This may have to go to the Q and A

Peter Matteson
01-05-2006, 04:50 PM
heres the problem with that,


Could that be tread plate, as in the more accepted name of diamond plate, or tread plate saying theres a Quintet (5-Bar) Tread pattern. Instead of a Diamond Pattern, or is (Diamond Plate) refering to the tread pattern? This may have to go to the Q and A

Or wait about 31h 10m give or take a few and see it during the kick-off then by the material that would be quicker.
Pete

Wetzel
01-05-2006, 05:07 PM
Those will be some solid pucks...

Wetzel

Ryan F.
01-05-2006, 05:08 PM
The lexan is preplexing me. Very expensive and something that could swapped out with much cheaper items if used as flooring. Leads me to believe we might have some sort of see through obstacle.

Joe Johnson
01-05-2006, 05:12 PM
The lexan is preplexing me. Very expensive and something that could swapped out with much cheaper items if used as flooring. Leads me to believe we might have some sort of see through obstacle.

I would suppose that they are going to cover FIRST logos on the ramps, that everyone knows are the only logical solution to this AdvancedBuy list ;-)

Now if I only had an idea what that noodle clue was about... ...got to run, now that winter is official here, my wife keeps bugging me to put away the swim toys... ...wait a minute... ... don't coments like that belong HERE? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41013&highlight=noodle)

Joe J.

mechanicalbrain
01-05-2006, 05:18 PM
The lexan is preplexing me. Very expensive and something that could swapped out with much cheaper items if used as flooring. Leads me to believe we might have some sort of see through obstacle.
Is it possible that this includes material to make the player stations. I mean I know it doesn't seem like it but it would explain the lexan....

Drew Hopman
01-05-2006, 05:18 PM
Could this years game be a knock off of the vex competition half pipe hustle? It looks like it could use some of the same build materials…….

KathieK
01-05-2006, 05:23 PM
<thinking>Why don't my other posts receive as much attention?<stops thinking>

Elgin Clock
01-05-2006, 05:28 PM
<thinking>Why don't my other posts receive as much attention?<stops thinking>

HA HA HA!! You gotta hit the right buttons, this time you definitely did.

Don Wright
01-05-2006, 05:45 PM
I don't think we will be driving on the lexan. The list specifically says:


4ft x 8 ft x 1/8 in thick polycarbonate
(Lexan)**

**Note: These are expensive components and duplicate the actual playing field. They are not structurally necessary
and similar material or smaller pieces can be used to simulate the actual field performance.

Anything you have to drive on or react with in a specific way couldn't have this note since the specific friction would be critical for the robot design. So, I still believe it is going to just be used as side protection for falling robots.

Also, as mentioned by someone before, Luan has specific uses. It is not just a cheap version of plywood. It is more flexible and I would guess it could be used to make a concave or convex ramp up to a platform. I would think something like a concave or convex ramp would be harder to design for than a straight ramp or step.

And yes, if someone at a hardware store doesn't know what a carriage bolt is...well...that's sad.

Getting more and more excited every minute.

Rickertsen2
01-05-2006, 06:26 PM
No time to really study the list but the polycarb is intersting. Its 1/8" so the robot definately won't be driving on it. I don't think its for anything like the side of a ramp either because they would use plywood for that. It has the interesting property of being clear. Camera? Obstacle?

phrontist
01-05-2006, 06:30 PM
I'd be willing to bet the luan will be bent some how. The lexan cannot possibly be used without reinforcement on the field, it's just too thin.

sanddrag
01-05-2006, 06:34 PM
The 1/8" lexan is just fine for the robots to drive on if there is a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" ply underneath it.

phrontist
01-05-2006, 06:35 PM
The 1/8" lexan is just fine for the robots to drive on if there is a piece of 1/2" or 3/4" ply underneath it.

That was my first thought, but why Lexan? There are plenty of other materials that would be cheaper and be essentially the same.

Matt Krass
01-05-2006, 06:42 PM
five 'bots tangling with pasta- Five robots pulling on a rope.

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show- Easily pushable game piece that has to be pushed up "mountain side"

and seeing Montana's green heights- Ramps to climb like a mountain with scoring at top, top will use green to track with CMUcam


Keep in mind..I'm tired....


Other speculations, instead of rope the pasta refers to game pieces like toroids or pick up sticks...
I believe the Lexan will be a barrier to maybe keep you in your climbing lane or something, or maybe a random barrier on the field....the polycarb will mark out a "Loading" Area where the robot must be in to allow the HP to chuck one game piece in, perhaps with the same reload requirements as 2005 (Exit and re enter zone). Of course, I'm also tired....so feel free to disregard this.

phrontist
01-05-2006, 06:44 PM
I'm almost certain pasta refers to a truncated pyramid ramp (which would have 5 sides). Look at the food pyramid!

lrdblaster03
01-05-2006, 07:11 PM
while at dinner my dad had a good idea. his idea is that the lexan will be used to make a see through box. that box is there to be filled with noodles, then on top of that you would place a foot ball maybe?

it may seem a little crazy but it might be possible

KarenH
01-05-2006, 07:16 PM
one thing i noticed that isn't there...mailboxes :confused:
Based on my experience shopping for mailboxes--

While you can buy a limited selection of standard mailboxes at Home Depot, they are expensive. I couldn't find one that fit my spec's, and ordered one off the Internet. According to U.S. Postal Service regulations, you can also build your own, and the spec's are very generalized (don't waste your time trying to search the USPS site for the spec's unless you actually want a new mailbox). Plus, FIRST would be giving away too much by listing them with the materials.

Here are my guesses about the mailboxes:

1. We will build our own from the listed materials (lumber & deck screws).
2. They're included within one of the numerous KOP boxes.
3. They ARE one of the KOP boxes.
4. There will be no mailboxes. :)

jrocket567
01-05-2006, 07:21 PM
With a pile of lumber that could stretch to the moon, could we be playing pick-up- 2x4's???

Madison
01-05-2006, 07:38 PM
Both items 6 and 9 on the Bill of Materials are unique and, possibly, the most telling.

Item 6 is a single piece of 1"x5" lumber. One -- perhaps it's used as a stringer along the peak of some ramp.

Item 9 calls for 2 pieces of 2"x4"x10' -- all the other 2"x4"s are spec'd at 8', so there's some single component of the field that is 8'+ large -- in what dimension is anyone's guess.

In any case, because of those quantities, I expect the field will have symmetry in two planes only; no pentagons, octagons or other weird stuff.

Of course, it really is just a list of materials and they could be used to build anything at all.

lrdblaster03
01-05-2006, 07:43 PM
maybe the 10' is jsut for a piece that has to be cut to 5', or 4 pieces of that length

MadEyeMechie
01-05-2006, 07:46 PM
There has to be a reason why the sheets are polycarb and clear. As has been mentioned, they are too thin to be used w/o significant reinforcement. They could be used to lower the coefficent of friction, but I dont think so since it isnt really that slippery. They can bend, but as has been pointed out, other cheaper things can be used for this. But you can see through them. That has to be a key point!

My first thought was a large wall (perhaps 8-10' tall) that you have to reach over, and while looking thru it, pick up something with a "shovel" bucket.

Then another idea hit (and I notice that some others here have had this thought too) that there may be a raised center area / ramp that bots have to drive under as well as up, makes a lot of sense. You would have to be ble to see the bot underneath it to reasonably drive it.

But suppose you have to get up to the top of the raised area / ramp where maybe only 5 bots fit, and in the top there is a sort of pit. It could be made of a piece of something rolled into a large tube (ie 2' diameter) and filled with "stuff/pasta" that you have to dig a game piece out of? This pit would reach "down" to the ground (they cant really make a pit in the arena floor, right?)

So you have to dig (ie shovel) a game piece out of the "pasta" and lift it up to the top of the ramp/raised platform or perhaps then lift it even higher onto a support or post or such.

Anyway, just some thoughts and frankly Im not sure I can see how this totally meets the clue. But maybe it gives others even more ideas (not like we really seem to be lacking actually).

-MEM

PS the local Longmont Home Depot claimed on the phone to no longer carry treadplate. Also, the price for a 1 x 2' piece shown elsewhere is pretty much prohibitive! $28 for 2 sq feet, and we need 32 sq ft?

Madison
01-05-2006, 07:51 PM
maybe the 10' is jsut for a piece that has to be cut to 5', or 4 pieces of that length

You can't get two 5' long pieces of wood from one 10' long piece.

Tom Bottiglieri
01-05-2006, 07:53 PM
I took a little trip to home depot to investigate the tread plate mystery...


http://tinypic.com/jrqqzl.jpg

http://tinypic.com/jrqqtz.jpg

The sheets come in 1' x 2' sections, and are available in the Windows/Doors Section of the store. There were only 5 sheets left at our store, so look out!

lrdblaster03
01-05-2006, 07:58 PM
okay so it wont exactly be 5' but close enough to it

Gene F
01-05-2006, 09:04 PM
I think the 3/4 plywood will be to make spars for a ramp that has no flat surfaces at all. The 2X4s span between spars and are close enough that the 1/4 laun gives plenty of strength to support robots. The 10 ft 2x4s are used to make goals that are attached to the sides of the ramp. The goals are made from the poly carb rolled into a tube 8 feet long with holes that will accept pool noodles. The diamond plate forms a barrier on the sides of the ramp to keep robots from falling off. The pool noodles are color coded for each alliance.

Manoel
01-05-2006, 09:04 PM
I don't think we will be driving on the lexan. The list specifically says:

Anything you have to drive on or react with in a specific way couldn't have this note since the specific friction would be critical for the robot design. So, I still believe it is going to just be used as side protection for falling robots.


Well, in 2004 the low cost version of the field drawing (yes, I just checked it) suggested the use of plywood instead of polycarbonate, and the specific friction was relatively important to robot designs.
Of course, if you couldn't get past the HDPE the polycarbonate didn't really matter. :p

Jonathan Norris
01-05-2006, 09:10 PM
I am definitely thinking that the lexan will be used for some sort of see-through wall. Luckily for us one of our sponsors is GM Plastics and has been suppling us with lexan for our robot (which we mainly use for armor :). I imagine a 10' foot high wall raised on a ramp where robots will have to put something over. There is very little which we can figure out from this list, because it is just that a list of materials (however that is a awfully large amount of wood for 1/2 of the field).

Richard Wallace
01-05-2006, 10:10 PM
I think the 3/4 plywood will be to make spars for a ramp that has no flat surfaces at all. The 2X4s span between spars and are close enough that the 1/4 laun gives plenty of strength to support robots. The 10 ft 2x4s are used to make goals that are attached to the sides of the ramp. The goals are made from the poly carb rolled into a tube 8 feet long with holes that will accept pool noodles. The diamond plate forms a barrier on the sides of the ramp to keep robots from falling off. The pool noodles are color coded for each alliance.This is the most interesting guess I've read yet. Do you have some inside knowledge?

I have none, but will add one element to your guess just to make the game concept even more outrageous: Spacing of the pool noodles is small enough that two or more of them can support another object (a football?) that must be lifted over the top rim of the clear goal-tube. Highest football scores a bonus.

Andrew Blair
01-05-2006, 10:33 PM
The polycarb will likely not be used to be a see through barrier forthings, because if it's in contact with robots, it'll get scuffed and you won't be able to see through it, so it'll have to be replaced quite often, which gets expensive. And if it's not in contact with robots, there's no point in having it, right? Maybe as a goal shield type thing, so you can only enter the goal from one side, but that is it. No polycarb wall across the front of the field.:rolleyes:

Rickertsen2
01-05-2006, 11:13 PM
Polycarb - Something non-structural. I don't think it will be used to laminate something else because they allow substitutions. The most likely substitute would be plexi, which shatters easily. I am thinking its transparency is key. As mentioned before, perhaps there is an area that you can see but your robot cannot reach. Perhaps the camera is supposed to see though it, but i doubt it. Glare would be an issue.

Diamond plate - The texture of this item is probably fairly critical. Its fairly thick, and there is ALOT(4'x8') of it. Maybie it laminates the plywood, although i doubt it or it would be optional. I also do not think it is meant to be bent into anything because not all teams have a sheet metal bender. I think the robot will be driving on this stuff. Perhaps it is made into a box supported by the smaller wood. Perhaps it is integrated into something with the polycarb.

2x4s - Obviously part of some sort of raised structure. Ramp? Platform? Game piece dispensers?

1x3s and 1x5s - They are probably too skinny to be structural. I think they are a very key piece. I'm thinking maybie they form a supprot structure for something else. My guess is some sort of game piece dispenser or holder or goal.
plywood - Probably the decking for the structure as well as other things. There are several thicknesses. There is the same amount of polycarb as 1/4" Maybie there will be a curved slippery hill? The platform will be very sizable.

Deck Screws - Hold everything together.

Drywall Screws - ??? Screw the floor down?

Bolts Washers and Nuts - 4" long. thats pretty long and there are 8 opf them.

1075master
01-05-2006, 11:23 PM
no wheels, tubing or anything. in 04 they never put the balls on the field list since they gave them to us. so maybe there is something moveable on the field but the elements themselves are not. and if its not on the list but is in the KOP the object can't be that big. well unless it blows up or something. but u get the point.
i'm thinking ramps and walls.. lexan i'm still really confused i agree with everyone that its a see-through wall.

Kevin Kolodziej
01-05-2006, 11:25 PM
The lexan isn't likely to be used for the walls of a ramp..they are only 1/8". The side walls for 2003 were 3/4" I believe...perhaps 1". Either way, they were thick. Being a surface to see a FIRST logo under makes sense, and the traction on them isn't too terrible for FIRST bots (VEX bots are another story...we had lexan ramps in our Uber Tuber game and only 2-3 out of 21 teams could get up them).

The diamond plate is really driving me crazy.

Those 10' pieces of lumber could be used in conjuction with some of the 2x4s to make a ladder. For what...well...er..hmmmmmm.

Kev - who can't wait for the sound of a few thousand palms smacking a few thousan foreheads in just under 36 hours.

1075master
01-05-2006, 11:32 PM
in '04 lexan was used on the top of the middle element and the steps were made out of diamond plate. arg this is hurting my brain!!!

EricH
01-05-2006, 11:43 PM
in '04 lexan was used on the top of the middle element and the steps were made out of diamond plate. arg this is hurting my brain!!!Nope. HDPE (High Density PolyEthylene) was used on 2003's ramp as the top surface, 2004 had HDPE on top of its platforms, and the diamond plate was on the sides of said platforms.

What's really killing me is the sheer volume of lumber. I count three different types in two lengths, one of which (2*4*8ft) has a quantity of 17. And then you throw in three thicknesses of plywood. NO casters, PVC, flanges, magnets, or anything else that is unusual, except for the amount of wood.

Let's not forget that 2*whatever (usually 4) or plywood is a common substitute for diamond plate, depending on the application, but if there is diamond plate you have to maneuver on, forget it, you're better off with diamond plate.

Billfred
01-05-2006, 11:46 PM
Nope. HDPE (High Density PolyEthylene) was used on 2003's ramp as the top surface, 2004 had HDPE on top of its platforms, and the diamond plate was on the sides of said platforms.
Not quite. The small steps in front of the stationary goal in 2004 were diamond plate, if memory serves me right. (And even if they weren't, it was definitely aluminum.)

Everything else, though, seems accurate.

ChuckDickerson
01-05-2006, 11:51 PM
You can't get two 5' long pieces of wood from one 10' long piece.

I don't want to sound like a smart butt but I don't understand your response. I don't know about you but I can rip a 10' 2x4 on my table saw into 2 10' lengths if I cut down the middle. I can cut at an angle and get anything in between (i.e. two 6' long 2x4s with pointed ends). I could even cut two 10' long triangle wedges if the 10' 2x4 was cut on a diagonal. I make no claims that anything I cut will be straight though. ;) My point is I'm not assuming anything about how we may or may not cutup and use any of the material on the list.

Salik Syed
01-06-2006, 12:00 AM
Polycarb - The see-through aspect is definitely important... I like the cylindrical idea... I think the Lexan will be rolled into a cylinder and will contain scoring objects, which must be retrieved from inside (?)
either that or maybe

Diamond plate - I think it will laminate over a ramp of some sort.

2x4s - There is just SO MUCH lumber, I have to agree: there will be some curved structure, sheeted w/ the luan, this will require ALOT of 2X4s for adequate support. perhaps even two angled ramps with a curved ramp in the center ?
Like this but of course less steep
/U\



Bolts, 1x3s and 1x5s - These have totally stumped me (esp. the 1X5X8!)

Manoel
01-06-2006, 12:05 AM
Could you rephrase that so we can understand you? And HDPE is plastic (look for milk jugs for an everyday example) and fairly slippery; that's why it was used as a driving surface. If they wanted slippery, they'd have put HDPE on the list, but Lexan is clear and less slippery.

Maybe they weren't looking for super slippery; this year's game may be so devious that even a mildly slippery surface will give us enough trouble. :D

In 2004 the stairs were made of diamond plate, the intermediate platforms (red and blue) were HDPE and the top one (under the chin up bar) was polycarbonate. The FIRST logo was visible through it; that way you get slippery and purty, something the GDC really likes :yikes:

raf4far
01-06-2006, 12:39 AM
There's something missing......green paint

So I'm guessing no CMUcam cuz theres no green paint. hm...so whats Montanas green heights?

Tom Bottiglieri
01-06-2006, 12:50 AM
So I'm guessing no CMUcam cuz theres no green paint. hm...so whats Montanas green heights?
Ha. I wouldn't rule it out just yet. Who knows what's coming in the kit.

sanddrag
01-06-2006, 02:34 AM
I was in the FIRST IRC chat just now, and there was this guy in there named sanddrag, and he made some predictions that sounded pretty good. ;) :D

Madison
01-06-2006, 02:38 AM
I don't want to sound like a smart butt but I don't understand your response. I don't know about you but I can rip a 10' 2x4 on my table saw into 2 10' lengths if I cut down the middle. I can cut at an angle and get anything in between (i.e. two 6' long 2x4s with pointed ends). I could even cut two 10' long triangle wedges if the 10' 2x4 was cut on a diagonal. I make no claims that anything I cut will be straight though. ;) My point is I'm not assuming anything about how we may or may not cutup and use any of the material on the list.

Well, of course, but wouldn't it be a bit silly for FIRST to have us buy 2x4s only to make them into 2x2s? :p

I was just pointing out that you can't get two 5' 2x4s from a 10' 2x4, but even that's not true, apparently. As with their width and height, I'm told, 10' lumber is actually not 10'. It's a bit longer. Or so says the guy who works at Home Depot.

(This is why I hate lumber.)

sanddrag
01-06-2006, 02:42 AM
(This is why I hate lumber.)Pipe is nearly as bad. One day they (yes, the mysterious "they") need to redo the naming/reference system on lumber and pipe.

Madison
01-06-2006, 02:44 AM
Pipe is nearly as bad. One day they (yes, the mysterious "they") need to redo the naming/reference system on lumber and pipe.

...and heaven forbid that you confuse pipe and tubing. Oh man.

varcsscotty
01-06-2006, 03:56 AM
are you sure it's longer? i thought it was approx. 1/16th shorter because the mill has to cut it down so some of it becomes sawdust....not that it makes a huge difference... but it might to my engineer team membes :)

JohnBoucher
01-06-2006, 05:47 AM
Very, Very difficult to roll a sheet of Lexan, even 1/8"

Tom Bottiglieri
01-06-2006, 06:57 AM
Very, Very difficult to roll a sheet of Lexan, even 1/8"

The 1/8" thickness might allow you to get away with a slight curve, but for the most part I agree: No rolling of the lexan will be done this year.

artdutra04
01-06-2006, 08:03 AM
The 1/8" thickness might allow you to get away with a slight curve, but for the most part I agree: No rolling of the lexan will be done this year.Heat guns could solve that. :rolleyes:

Noah Melamed
01-06-2006, 08:09 AM
We curved lexan on our front hardware shield in a 90° arc. While bolting it down we heated with a heat gun for 15-20 minutes. Wheen I took off the pieces after they had been bolted at that angle for over a year the Lexan sprung back flat with only minor deflection. :ahh: maybe we did something wrong but im pretty sure you won't get too much of a bend.

Don Wright
01-06-2006, 09:31 AM
After further thought and discussion with some people, I believe I was incorrect on my assumption that we wouldn't have to drive on the lexan. Not that this means anything to anyone...

Nitroxextreme
01-06-2006, 09:38 AM
In regards to the bending of lexan...
Last year we made a lexan "hood" out of 1/8 Lexan and it had a slight bend in it...this bend however slight it was stayed consistent

This was acomplised by the use of a heat gun

1075master
01-06-2006, 10:58 AM
if u read up on one of the items it is called luan! the person who works at home depot and found out the mailbox thing also gave us info that luan is very flexible. it is used as a sub floor in damp areas. yes it is for damp areas but keep in mind water is messy and bad for the robots so its DEFINETLY NOT being used for its water proof purpose but probably more for its flexibility.
i also just thought of the fact that they are trying to keep the field cheap so the lexan could be used as part of an end zone that the players stand behind because it may be an obstacle for the human player as in '04. but 2 sheets? that makes me a bit skeptical that i'm somewhat correct. but hey its just a guess!

DUCKIE
01-06-2006, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by ScottM
There's something missing......green paint

So I'm guessing no CMUcam cuz theres no green paint. hm...so whats Montanas green heights?

Was there green paint on the list last year?

Because that is not what FIRST used on the vision tetras. (Or atleast... thats not what my team OR Mike Wade's field used.) They used the roll of green "sticker-like" material stuck to a piece of plastic. Three of which were then attached to each vision tetra. (Which I think came in the kit of parts.)

I think they will keep the cam... just like keeping autonomous... because they are a challenge.

1075master
01-06-2006, 11:16 AM
Was there green paint on the list last year?

Because that is not what FIRST used on the vision tetras. (Or atleast... thats not what my team OR Mike Wade's field used.) They used the roll of green "sticker-like" material stuck to a piece of plastic. Three of which were then attached to each vision tetra. (Which I think came in the kit of parts.)

I think they will keep the cam... just like keeping autonomous... because they are a challenge.

see its things like that that screwed people up. first gave us the exact colours to use on the tetras but when u even slightly deviate from those colours everything gets screwed up. people had a hard time because of the lights being different when you go and use tape thats not going to be the exact colour of the competition tetra you are going to have problems.

generalbrando
01-06-2006, 11:18 AM
The lexan and diamond plate will be driving/manipulation surfaces of great importance. In 2004 they didn't have us get lexan for the top of the platform...there wasn't that much shoving and it was level. But in 2003 they had us get the HDPE because it's slick and the copper mesh because it was the ramp. They were important driving surfaces - difficult driving conditions and lots of shoving (king of the hill).

My guess is that since there's 96 sq ft of special surface here, we've got another ramp to deal with! Woe is me. I hope I'm wrong :)

ChuckDickerson
01-06-2006, 11:32 AM
(This is why I hate lumber.)

Yea, every time I have to use the new less-than-original size 2x(whatever)lumber on my old house it drives me crazy. Everything now is about 1/8 smaller than it was even 20 years ago.

One thing I have always wondered is how is lumber sold in countries that use the metric system? Do they buy 4cmX9cm boards rather than 2x4s and 1.2mX2.4m sheets of plywood rather than 4x8? Seems kind of odd to me either way. Why would a country that uses the metric system sell a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood? Maybe their dimensions are totally different and you would buy a 1m x 2m piece of plywood. Anyone know what the European version of Home Depot sells? I wonder if the International teams have a problem finding 10' 2x4s and 4'x8' sheets of 1/8" Lexan?

sanddrag
01-06-2006, 11:39 AM
The lexan will be put on the bottom of moveable goals so they slide around. That is my prediction.

Mark Pettit
01-06-2006, 11:49 AM
So I'm guessing no CMUcam cuz theres no green paint. hm...so whats Montanas green heights?

After reading your post, I went and checked the old 2005 advanced materials pdf file (http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/AdvanceBuy_r4.pdf) and saw that only the "Sunny Summer" color was included on the advanced list last year. Green, blue, and red were not on that list (probably to throw us off).
I am not counting on robot vision systems (CMU or otherwise ) to be going away, especially based on the list. I just hope that my team will be more successful with vision should it be there for us to utilize this year.

Dave Flowerday
01-06-2006, 12:06 PM
first gave us the exact colours to use on the tetras
Actually, FIRST initially told us to use a certain color of spraypaint last year that ended up not even remotely close to the real tetra colors. As I recall, they released the "real" green material (which was a plastic adhesive type thing) after some prodding. Perhaps this is why some teams claimed that the camera didn't work well at the competition - if they had been practicing with the green spraypaint, the real tetras looked completely different.

GaryVoshol
01-06-2006, 12:41 PM
The Lexan and diamond-plate are optional - they could be substituted with smaller pieces or other materials.

My guess - the lexan will enclose or bound something. It's clear so the audience can see what's inside, but it is not critical for the operators to see it. (Maybe because the robot is "seeing" something autonomously?) Thus for practice a team could substitute cheaper plywood.

BrianR
01-06-2006, 02:28 PM
Hey, has anyone noticed that these carriage bolts are 16" long? I have no clue what is on that list that would need bolts of that length. Corners between 2x4s? Any ideas?

Madison
01-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Hey, has anyone noticed that these carriage bolts are 16" long? I have no clue what is on that list that would need something of that size. Any ideas?

3/8-16 isn't a length, but a thread type. The -16 means there are 16 threads per inch of bolt. The bolts are spec'd at 4" long.

BrianR
01-06-2006, 02:53 PM
okay, thanks for clarification

Chaychay
01-06-2006, 03:17 PM
Has anyone had any luck finding the #7 deck screws? I got the #8 no problems.

I've tried Home Depot, Rona, HomeHardware and Brafaso....none of them had size 7. (Nearest thing I found were #7 wood screws @ home depot, but they were too short)

Thanks for any help :)

Billfred
01-06-2006, 04:21 PM
The lexan will be put on the bottom of moveable goals so they slide around. That is my prediction.
That might also explain the carriage bolts. (If FIRST needed to hold that lexan in place, then they'd need something that didn't dig into the carpet.)

Dr.Bot
01-06-2006, 10:21 PM
Lexan is slippery. Diamond plate isn't. Looking at all the lumber - there will be platforms, steps, or a combination. Goals will be bins or raised troughs.
I can see the goals being on raised platforms, that have lexan on them. Both defending and scoring on a lexan surface will be 'interesting.'

I think the theme song for this years competition will be: "Slip Sliding Away."

Peter Matteson
01-06-2006, 10:49 PM
I think the theme song for this years competition will be: "Slip Sliding Away."

How about Coolio's "Fantastic Voyage" with the apropo chorus :
"Slide, slide, slippidy slide living the in the city its do or die"

Madison
01-06-2006, 11:05 PM
How about Coolio's "Fantastic Voyage" with the apropo chorus :
"Slide, slide, slippidy slide living the in the city its do or die"

The original from which Coolio sampled, while not lyrically appropriate, is a far better song.

sanddrag
01-06-2006, 11:12 PM
I think the theme song for this years competition will be: "Slip Sliding Away."Interesting you mention that. I wasn't going to really come out and mention this before because I didn't know how credible it was, but maybe you've heard the same thing I've heard. See, I was talking to someone who knows someone on the GDC (but of course they can't tell much) and they said to listen to the song "Landslide" (the Dixie Chicks do a wonderful version of it). Anyway, I did, and found the interesting lyrics:

"And if you see my reflection in the snow covered hill, well the landslide brought me down."

Actually, a lot of the other lyrics too can be related to a potential FIRST game.

Interesting...

Peter Matteson
01-06-2006, 11:29 PM
The original from which Coolio sampled, while not lyrically appropriate, is a far better song.

Why I went with that choice. Also it was popular when I was in highschool.
Oh man, I just dated myself again.