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Adam Richards
02-02-2006, 05:07 PM
Hey everyone, FIRST Scouting Network will have the following features for the 2006 season:

Easy-to-Use Match Scoring - Just point and click every time a team scores. If Bluabot scores a shot in the center goal, just click the appropriate button, and one shot will be added to their score.
Match Statistics - Averages, minimums, and maximums about every possible match statistic including center goal scores, side goal scores, penalty points, and more.
PowerPrediction™ - Using generated statistics, the likelihood of a robot to be able to win a match will be available after the first couple of matches. Results are derived solely from Statistics.
Robot Statistics - From the shooting mechanism to the drivetrain to the electronics, data about a robot's core systems are recorded on the Thursday of the competition so users can compare information about varying robots.
Robot Photo Gallery - Shows pictures of robots allowing scouts to be able to assess a robot's strengths and weaknesses themselves before they play against a team.
FSNPerspectives™ - Provides between 1-4 alternate match perspectives, focusing on an overall view of the field and an actioncam, highlighting the most exciting parts of the match.
User Accounts for each scout - Every scout will be able to register as a member of their team on our service to access certain features. This will allow us to provide a better experience for all users of the service, ensuring that data is kept as accurate as possible. There will be no need to register if you only wish to view data.
Administration Panel - Allows server administrators to be able to amend or correct certain data, ensuring all information about a match is accurate and verified.

Demo will be available soon. Stay tuned for more information!

orelinde
02-20-2006, 07:21 PM
Eager to see this new scouting method. When will it be available?

Adam Richards
02-20-2006, 07:40 PM
Either next monday or (at the latest) next tuesday afternoon.

I'm currently waiting on someone from another team to prepare a layout for me, and if that doesn't get completed by Thu/Fri, I'm going to release it with the basic one I have already designed.

Also, our host had a few problems with their IP, so once they get resolved (in the next few hours), our website and forums should be back up.

Swampdude
02-22-2006, 06:56 PM
Adam, this sounds fantastic. I was just getting ready to sit down and knock something like this out myself. It sounds like you're addressing the features I was thinking of. I would address it more simply because I'm afraid all the extra bells and whistles your adding may not get the data input from the users as the matches drag on and on and people get bored filling everything in. I'm really curious what data you plan to get, as this will determine its usefulness to my team. For match results I'm only looking for:

Team#
Match#
Shoot score
Dump Score
Defense y/n
Ramp y/n
Autonomous score
malfunction y/n

I'd love to help/use what your creating, hopefully it will suit our needs. I plan to keep a laptop on the cart to get the data while queuing, and also prematch pit visits etc. Therefore the routers location is an issue. At UCF for instance we always get put outside in the tent, and I'm wondering if theres a way to relay the address? I could bring a router and set something up in our pit if you needed (as I'm sure we'll be outside).

Anyhow, if you could, please let me know if you're collecting the aforementioned data - and displaying it fairly straight forward. I was just going to have a report that showed all the participating teams history something like:

for my upcoming match #??
team 1234 - match 2 - shoot 5 - dump 20 - defense y - ramp n - auto 12 - mal y
team 1234 - match 9 - shoot 20 - dump 2 - defense y - ramp n - auto 9 - mal n

team 5678 - match 3 - shoot 0 - dump 10 - defense n ramp y - auto 30 - mal n
etc

I'm sure yours will be sweet, and thanks for sharing it. Please count me in as a test user.

Adam Richards
02-27-2006, 11:21 PM
Team#
Match#
Shoot score
Dump Score
Defense y/n
Ramp y/n
Autonomous score
malfunction y/nThat's more or less what we're doing. We're also running statistics based upon the information, giving basic details across the teams at the regional, allowing rankings based on a number of factors.

I'd love to help/use what your creating, hopefully it will suit our needs. I plan to keep a laptop on the cart to get the data while queuing, and also prematch pit visits etc. Therefore the routers location is an issue. At UCF for instance we always get put outside in the tent, and I'm wondering if theres a way to relay the address? I could bring a router and set something up in our pit if you needed (as I'm sure we'll be outside).I'll be testing the router distance from our inside pit on the Thursday (we're more or less somewhere off to the side), and I'll run to Best Buy to pick up another one if I need to, to place closer to the stands.
Anyhow, if you could, please let me know if you're collecting the aforementioned data - and displaying it fairly straight forward. I was just going to have a report that showed all the participating teams history something like:

~

I'm sure yours will be sweet, and thanks for sharing it. Please count me in as a test user.I should have a testable version out tomorrow (Tuesday) or the early day after (Wednesday), with all the features for week 1, where it will be hosted at New Jersey and VCU. A second version may come out for week 2 including a few extra features for the UCF, UTC, Great Lakes, and Finger Lakes Regionals.

phrontist
02-27-2006, 11:30 PM
I would like to strongly encourage everyone who scouts to contribute to FSN this year, as standards save everyone work and make existance more pleasent.

Ethulin
02-27-2006, 11:51 PM
I would like to strongly encourage everyone who scouts to contribute to FSN this year, as standards save everyone work and make existance more pleasent.

I know that the reason myself and the other stampscouting.org developers chose not to was we found that it would not be pointed enough towards statistics. I like what FSN is trying to do but I am affraid that the fact is different scouts are looking for different data. So different infact that it can not all be accommodated with one application.

jarowe
03-07-2006, 10:59 PM
I know that the reason myself and the other stampscouting.org developers chose not to was we found that it would not be pointed enough towards statistics. I like what FSN is trying to do but I am affraid that the fact is different scouts are looking for different data. So different infact that it can not all be accommodated with one application.

I think that information FSN gets will actually be more valuable than statistics. While it is very important to know how effective a team is at scoring and how often they have been penalized, when preparing for a match it is better to know the way the team plays the game.

If they defend, it is important to know how they go about defending, so you know if there is a way to prevent it. If they can shoot in autonomous, knowing how many points they are capable of scoring isn't going to help you defend against them, but knowing where they shoot from will help you develop a way to stop them from scoring. Also, when choosing alliance partners, it is not always wise just to choose someone with a high percentage of shooting accuracy if they always need to position themselves where you position your robot.

Thats not to say that the statistical information provided by programs such as STAMP isn't helpful or important-- quite the opposite. This information complements the more subjective information to help you understand how to play the game or choose alliance partners effectively.

I also find that different opinions on other teams is actually more beneficial. The variation in opinions of a team actually can lead to a more thorough understanding of another team's abilities. People interpret things differently, and might spot a weakness or strength a team has that another person might not see.

It's all relative of course, and you have to develop a system that works from your team. What our team uses is a compilation of advice found from other teams with a lot of our own ideas. I'm just grateful that STAMP and FSN are both around for us to collect and organize information to coordinate scouting efforts.

Adam Richards
03-07-2006, 11:18 PM
A release will be available within the next 16 hours. Stay tuned everyone.

Ethulin
03-07-2006, 11:42 PM
I think that information FSN gets will actually be more valuable than statistics. While it is very important to know how effective a team is at scoring and how often they have been penalized, when preparing for a match it is better to know the way the team plays the game.

If they defend, it is important to know how they go about defending, so you know if there is a way to prevent it. If they can shoot in autonomous, knowing how many points they are capable of scoring isn't going to help you defend against them, but knowing where they shoot from will help you develop a way to stop them from scoring. Also, when choosing alliance partners, it is not always wise just to choose someone with a high percentage of shooting accuracy if they always need to position themselves where you position your robot.

Thats not to say that the statistical information provided by programs such as STAMP isn't helpful or important-- quite the opposite. This information complements the more subjective information to help you understand how to play the game or choose alliance partners effectively.

I also find that different opinions on other teams is actually more beneficial. The variation in opinions of a team actually can lead to a more thorough understanding of another team's abilities. People interpret things differently, and might spot a weakness or strength a team has that another person might not see.

It's all relative of course, and you have to develop a system that works from your team. What our team uses is a compilation of advice found from other teams with a lot of our own ideas. I'm just grateful that STAMP and FSN are both around for us to collect and organize information to coordinate scouting efforts.

That is what the notes section is for :)

STAMP's basic premise is that teams... well teams lie. Maybe not intentionaly but they do. Hard match data is what can beat that. You seem to see data as just numbers, but really all the things you listed above are data, all able to be collected if wanted by STAMP.

But I degress, I am eagerly awaiting the FSN 1.0 release!

Bill Moore
03-08-2006, 01:16 PM
I also find that different opinions on other teams is actually more beneficial. The variation in opinions of a team actually can lead to a more thorough understanding of another team's abilities. People interpret things differently, and might spot a weakness or strength a team has that another person might not see.
Scouting in many ways is exactly what you describe, it is another "brainstorming" session that you go through during the season. Part of it is theoretical (statistics), and part of it is practical (gameplay).

Theoretically, if I pick the highest statistically rated teams at a regional, I should win. But too often that doesn't happen, and that is the gameplay portion. Two great robots may not work together well, because they are so identical, or as you indicated, they may get in each others shooting positions, or maybe one team isn't very good as an "alliance" player, etc. There are many robots who are very good at playing this game alone, but who have difficulty playing as an alliance.

It is fun, as an observer, to watch a group of students and mentors, on Friday evenings, scour over the scouting data collected that day. So much brainstorming and "what if's" are flying around, and possibilities emerge seemingly from nowhere. Everybody working to get the statistical portion and the practical portion married into the best possible alliance. (Get a cup of coffee, disengage from the group, and sit back and watch all those wheels turning in those engineering minds. You'll swear that sometimes you can smell smoke!)

There is no "EASY" button when it comes to scouting, despite the many efforts to create one.

Ethulin
03-08-2006, 04:26 PM
Back on topic, 16hrs have passed, where is FSN v1?

Adam Richards
03-08-2006, 06:06 PM
Back on topic, 16hrs have passed, where is FSN v1?I've talked to a few people, and we're not going to do the full release today. I know this comes as a disappointment to many people, though there is a reason behind this.

The code we are using is untested in a regional situation, so distributing it to many people to test on and possibly use at a future regional could cause problems if they do not update the unstable code.

There is good news though. FSN will be running and available to all teams at the UCF Regional this weekend, but under monitoring to ensure that the server remains stable. During the regional, we will also upload a public demo and submit nightly updates with data gathered at the regional. If you wish to beta test it for use at a future regional, please send me a PM and I'll send you a link to a special beta tester site after the regional which will allow each tester to fully experience the software. Erik Thulin (from STAMP) and Matt Keller (from SOAP), you are both free to be in the testing group if you wish.

I apologize for the inconvenience, and hope to see everyone at the UCF regional. Here are some screen shots to show some of our code in action:

http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/addmatches.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/matchscouting.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/stats.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/teamview.jpg

Ethulin
03-08-2006, 06:36 PM
I've talked to a few people, and we're not going to do the full release today. I know this comes as a disappointment to many people, though there is a reason behind this.

The code we are using is untested in a regional situation, so distributing it to many people to test on and possibly use at a future regional could cause problems if they do not update the unstable code.

There is good news though. FSN will be running and available to all teams at the UCF Regional this weekend, but under monitoring to ensure that the server remains stable. During the regional, we will also upload a public demo and submit nightly updates with data gathered at the regional. If you wish to beta test it for use at a future regional, please send me a PM and I'll send you a link to a special beta tester site after the regional which will allow each tester to fully experience the software. Erik Thulin (from STAMP) and Matt Keller (from SOAP), you are both free to be in the testing group if you wish.

I apologize for the inconvenience, and hope to see everyone at the UCF regional. Here are some screen shots to show some of our code in action:

http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/addmatches.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/matchscouting.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/stats.jpg
http://www.firstscouting.net/screenshots/teamview.jpg

Huh. Some of the interface, especially matchscouting, looks a lot like STAMP. I look forward to looking through the code.

This post seems to have been misinterpreted. I did not mean to imply that any code had been copied. If that is what I had meant I would have come right out and said it. I really did mean exactly what I said no strings attached, I look forward to seeing the code. I want to see how both our development seams accomplished such similar outputs in different ways.

You can be sure that if I think there is foul play in anything, this is not confined to scouting, not confined to FIRST, but to life in general, I will be the upmost candid about it.

Adam Richards
03-08-2006, 10:14 PM
Huh. Some of the interface, especially matchscouting, looks a lot like STAMP. I look forward to looking through the code.Considering that the data that we gather is nearly the same, there is a high likelihood that the layout would be quite similar, since there are not many ways to easily and compactly display a form like that.

To set the record straight, I haven't even downloaded the STAMP software, let alone looked at its source, so any code similarities are purely coincidental.

Ethulin
03-09-2006, 09:13 AM
Considering that the data that we gather is nearly the same, there is a high likelihood that the layout would be quite similar, since there are not many ways to easily and compactly display a form like that.

To set the record straight, I haven't even downloaded the STAMP software, let alone looked at its source, so any code similarities are purely coincidental.

Thats not what I meant. I mean it will be interesting to see how we both accompished the same tasks with different code.

Please refer to the now edited post:
Huh. Some of the interface, especially matchscouting, looks a lot like STAMP. I look forward to looking through the code.

This post seems to have been misinterpreted. I did not mean to imply that any code had been copied. If that is what I had meant I would have come right out and said it. I really did mean exactly what I said no strings attached, I look forward to seeing the code. I want to see how both our development seams accomplished such similar outputs in different ways.

You can be sure that if I think there is foul play in anything, this is not confined to scouting, not confined to FIRST, but to life in general, I will be the upmost candid about it.

Just to set this record straight I am truly happy that FSN is about ready to make a release. I am happy that their will be more options out there to all our scouts, and therefore more "custom fits" if you will.

On another note, some of the things I was hopeing to get SSs of:
# Match Statistics - Averages, minimums, and maximums about every possible match statistic including center goal scores, side goal scores, penalty points, and more.
# PowerPrediction™ - Using generated statistics, the likelihood of a robot to be able to win a match will be available after the first couple of matches. Results are derived solely from Statistics.
# Robot Photo Gallery - Shows pictures of robots allowing scouts to be able to assess a robot's strengths and weaknesses themselves before they play against a team.
# FSNPerspectives™ - Provides between 1-4 alternate match perspectives, focusing on an overall view of the field and an actioncam, highlighting the most exciting parts of the match.

bripley
03-10-2006, 12:22 AM
It just goes to show we aren't thinking outside the box :o

Maybe next year we can come up with something completely different yet supremely intuitively obvious...and then we can keep dreaming... :)

(BTW: I'm also a STAMP developer, that's what I mean by we)

Nuttyman54
03-11-2006, 02:33 PM
Any news from the front? If anyone has information on how it's working out at UCF please let me know (here or by PM) My team is running it next week for Silicon Valley and the sooner we get updates the better. I realize Adam is probably VERY busy right now, so if someone has info or could just drop by and ask him for me that would be excellent.

Tomasz Bania
03-11-2006, 07:56 PM
At last check he was still "Working on it".

Our team is also running FSN next week at the Detroit Regional.

Tomasz Bania

JoeChrz
03-11-2006, 08:13 PM
Just to let you know -- during the Ypsilanti Great Lakes Regional, we beta tested a scouting program that I wrote for my team (not public yet, but hopefully by the UC Davis Regional). During testing, we discovered that having the + and - button didn't work. I had the same idea and thought it was pretty good, until I discovered that users can't look @ a computer and watch the match at the same time :-\. A good way to fix this is to provide an option that lets one person just enter all of the information gathered by users. Also - you need at least 6 people in order to make that system work because 1 person cannot (accurately) keep track of 2 robots.

It looks like our programs have the same basic functionality, but I'm curious about how much actual recoding you need to do each year to make it work with the new competitions.