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Tottanka
07-28-2007, 10:32 AM
Your team was in a regional, which one of the next 2 cases would you prefer your team to have performed?

1) Your team was ranked 2nd, and as alliance captains you reached the finals, giving a good competition, but loosing in the finals to a better alliance. You don't make it to Atlanta, but your team is mentioned and remembered as one of the best in the regional.

2) After qualifications you are ranked at the low quarter of the table. You are lucky to be picked as the 3rd member of the 1st alliance, and you make it all the way to be regional champions on thier back. You make good defence, but there is no question about the fact that it were your 2 partners that really deserved the win.You get to go to Atlanta, but hardly anyone remembers how your robot looked like and what it did.

KTorak
07-28-2007, 10:44 AM
I'd go with number one, but thats probably because that's how we usually fair. We tend to rank well as a strong robot/team, but lose in the eliminations. For example, we were double regional finalists this year.

AndyB
07-28-2007, 11:00 AM
This is really hard to say. Back in 2005, Triple Play, we had two regionals, two weekends apart.

Boilermaker was first for us and we placed in the middle of the pack, and we got picked 1st in the second round. (1st seed alliance). We ended up winning the regional and it was a blast.

The second regional we went to (Midwest) we placed 2nd overall, ranking under only Wildstang as the alliance selections were starting. We ended up losing in the semifinals to a Beatty-Wildstang alliance.

As weird as it is, winning a regional is a blast, and I would take the Boilermaker regional any day over the midwest regional.

Cooley744
07-28-2007, 11:36 AM
It depends on if you enjoy winning and doing a "job well done", or you look forward to the trips and all the fun that goes with that...Atlanta is pretty fun. But, overall, I would have to say that I would rather have a good robot and not make it to Nationals. After all, robotics is about making a good robot. lol.

vivek16
07-28-2007, 11:46 AM
number 1

heck, the joy of having a robot that works well enough to get to 2nd alliance would be way better than going to atlanta(although we have never been to atlanta or had a robot that worked well enough to get to 2nd alliance...).


-vivek

Tottanka
07-28-2007, 11:55 AM
I will have to go with number 2, simply because that i have already had 2 seasons like number 1, and, well, to put it all in one word - Atlanta.

Nuttyman54
07-28-2007, 12:27 PM
for both my teams, I think I can safely say that they (and I) would much rather be #2 seed and finalists, than piggyback their way to a victory.

dbell
07-28-2007, 01:49 PM
Number 1.
My team has experienced having a robot that can score well and one that can't. I would much rather go to one regional with a robot that works well than go to a regional and the championships with a robot that can barely score.
I'd rather have a good robot than get lucky.

DonRotolo
07-28-2007, 07:57 PM
So far the score seems to be 6 for #1, and 1 for #2

I'd pick #1 also

Jeremiah Johnson
07-28-2007, 08:26 PM
The second regional we went to (Midwest) we placed 2nd overall, ranking under only Wildstang as the alliance selections were starting. We ended up losing in the semifinals to a Beatty-Wildstang alliance.


Not to be rude or anything, but you guys lost to them in Quarterfinals. The alliance of 648, 79, and 107 lost in the Semifinals to that alliance. I'll never forget that day... it was arguably the most controversial third match ever played/scored at a FIRST competition. Decided on an "imaginary" 10pt penalty that let them win by 1pt. I was driver and that still gives me nightmares.


Okay, now to the real topic at hand... I would take #1. This has happened to us three times (Midwest 2004 (65, 648, 447), StL 2005 (648, 288, 650), Midwest 2007 (1000, 648, 447)). In each of those times we were not the 2nd alliance but upset very good alliances (see aforementioned close call above) and were the top scorers in each of the elimination matches. I have three silver medals and would like to add a gold, but only if we contribute greatly to that. This year our alliance (1st pick) at Midwest (1000, 648, 447) took the alliance we were against to 5 matches. That says a lot.


PS - 447 is good luck for us!

JackN
07-28-2007, 08:38 PM
I look at it like this, a great robot is only remembered for that year, winners are never forgotten. Look at it like this, you sponsors or school will just be impressed you won. Winning will attract more students, sponsors and community interest this will help your team in the long run anyway.

Tottanka
07-28-2007, 08:57 PM
Is it possible to turn this into a poll?

Bomberofdoom
07-29-2007, 05:01 AM
Just remake the post.


I think that my team (as I do) thrives to make a good robot in the building sessions, but the results of whether it's a really good robot or not come into the test when inside the matches in the regionals. Sometimes you might have a good robot, but you just didn't have the right strategy within the alliances you played with in the qualifing matches and that will leave you at a low rank. Bieng picked by an 8 top-seeded alliance shows that the alliance that chose you scouted your robot and your team and how you tried to work and win. Sometimes they'll take you because of your technical ability, or because of some kind of specialty that your team or you robot has. In either way, your team was somehow recognized. Having that kind of recognition from an alliance in the elimination rounds will surely bring the recongition from other teams that looked at you too. Whether your alliance is able to win the reigonal or fall in one of the rounds, most of the participants in the regional will know that you had a chance to represent the regional as one of the most recognized teams and/or robots in that reigonal at the championships.

We really hope to win the regionals since we never had the chance to experience Atlanta and to try to represent the part of the Israeli regional in the championships.

So I guess we would prefer #1, but I think that the events you'd want to chose depend on how your team and robot does in the reigonal in front of the other teams.

Rich Ross
07-29-2007, 08:15 AM
This is the first year I've been able to be on a team that earned Silver.

Feeling silver, depending on the circumstances, can feel just as good as winning gold. (its not every day you can lose to 703, 469, and 494).

Situation #1 is best i think. Consistently good teams will always have that. Tag-alongs are less likely to enjoy atlanta.

Duke_of_Hazard
07-29-2007, 08:28 AM
I would go with #1, since, after all is said and done, trophies dont matter.

Its the fun you have, and the reputation/respect you leave with all the teams you meet.

DonRotolo
07-29-2007, 09:56 AM
I look at it like this, a great robot is only remembered for that year, winners are never forgotten.
Not entirely - a team that builds a consistently good robot year after year is remembered. This is called reputation. By no coincidence these robots also tend to win, but not necessarily.

Jeremiah Johnson
07-29-2007, 10:03 AM
I look at it like this, a great robot is only remembered for that year, winners are never forgotten. Look at it like this, you sponsors or school will just be impressed you won. Winning will attract more students, sponsors and community interest this will help your team in the long run anyway.

In my case, I've forgotten nearly everyone that has defeated us in the finals, but have remembered everyone we played with.

ChristinaR
07-29-2007, 10:04 AM
Personally, I would prefer the first situation. It would be a better feeling to know we built an amazing robot that will be remembered (even without winning), than a robot that won because of the others in the alliance. Banners and trophies are great and all, but I think the feeling of accomplishment from building an exemplary robot far surpasses it.

However, my team has never won a regional and I know it would mean a lot to the students and mentors. We've been in search of 'that blue banner' for years now, and winning just once would help give validation to our work, even if that year's robot was mediocre at best.

Brandon Holley
07-31-2007, 02:39 PM
I have a different, #2 scenario, because this one directly applies to us this year at the boston regional:

Your team puts up a good showing, managing to get around a 4-5 tube average. It seems that however hard you try, you just cannot seem to win a match. The "algorithm of death" seems to be taking its toll on you. You play matches against 121 and 1403. You find yourself near the end of the rankings. However, some good scouts have seen that your team has some talent. Come down to alliance selections, the top 8 is a little off. It seems the "algorithm of death" may have struck again with some very high numbered teams making the top 8, not necessarily for their performance, but because of their partners. Their scouting is still new so they see your ranking as low as sign of weakness so you fall all the way to the 2nd half of the 2nd round of pickings. The 3rd alliance spots that your available and snatches you up.

You go onto the elims...the quarters were fairly competitive, some solid defense was played, but the other alliance fails to score enough points to contend with your solid alliance. You go onto the semifinals where you find your team firing on all cylinders. Your alliance gets a row of 8, not once, but twice. Onto the finals. By far the most difficult matchup, you are playing the number 1 alliance of arguably the 2 best robots at the competition. Their 3rd partner may not be the best, but they certainly hold their own. You win the first match, lose the 2nd, and enter the 3rd. Your alliance gives it their all. With 3 seconds left your team manages to climb your partners ramp which gives you a 15 pt. lead, thus WINNING THE REGIONAL. Your partners thank you, knowing if they had a different partner they may not have stood a chance.

Now what do you pick, 1 or 2?

Pavan Dave
07-31-2007, 03:17 PM
I voted having our bot remembered, but I would rather have the team remembered. I would want somebody saying "look at those Robonauts" rather "look at Redline/ChainZilla" any day.

I would love to go to Atlanta for one reason, meeting people. This year, I went to Atlanta and had a good time meeting new people as well as the mentors and friends I had made over the past year on Chief Delphi.

I guess personally I would like to go to Atlanta, but thinking of my team before myself, I would want our team/robot remembered.

Alex.Norton
07-31-2007, 04:18 PM
For me this would depend on the teams history.

On our team I would perfer to win the regional because A trophy and a bannor always help when getting new students to goin the team. We have always had a hard time getting students so this would be my priority.

However if the team in question has either won a regional or mabey one or two other awards then I would rather the second cause it would help build the reputation of the team instead.

Then again I did enjoy going to atlanta so it would still be a close call...

alex1699
07-31-2007, 04:52 PM
i don't care about winning or having the best robot i care about the time building the robot that the best part. fooling around man that was the best 6 weeks of my life pretty much ya

Billfred
07-31-2007, 06:16 PM
I'll take either. That's coming from someone whose idea of a great season is just making the elimination rounds.

Over the course of our brief trouncing in the Palmetto quarterfinals, we got a crash course in what it takes to go further. That involves three teams who are all on the same page, planning and executing well. Even if the first two names greatly upstage the third, I still have yet to see any alliance bring home a banner without all three teams putting out. If we aren't as remembered, so be it.

B. Flaherty
07-31-2007, 06:51 PM
I definitely have to go with number 1. In my 3 years, I have experienced both sides of this debate. In 2005, we were the second pick of 56 at Montclair Mayhem. Sure my team was a rookie and pretty decent, but 56 could almost have won it without our help. Sure, winning the event was fun, but it wasn't until this year that I realized how much sweeter it is to LOSE in the finals as alliance captain.

Brandon mentioned the Boston regional, my team was the alliance captain of the 1st seeded alliance. That fact alone made my season. We made it to the finals, and it was a very hard fought 3 matches, but I knew that we got beat by the better alliance, and I was extremely happy with our outcome. We didn't get to go to Atlanta, but I figured my last competition ever went out on a good note, with some silver hardware.

Little did I know, that my season would have one last competition the very next weekend, at the Palmetto regional. Here it was confirmed to me that we did have a good robot, and we weren't just lucky at the Boston Regional. Once again we were near the top of the seedings, and ultimately in the end we were seeded 4th, and picked by the top seed, 1251. Once again we found ourselves in the finals, but sadly our partners were having some problems, but that didn't stop us from pushing it to 3 matches. In the final match my team scored 7 tubes by themselves, but in the end the 60 bonus points of the second seeded alliance beat us. I was upset at first, knowing that we wouldn't be going to Atlanta at all, but once again, the journey there is much sweeter when you are the captain or the first pick. This in no means takes away from the third seed in anyway however, because they still did their parts. It's just my personal opinion that wins are sweeter when your bot is doing most of the work. If I had to, I would gladly lose in match 3 of the finals all over again.

Nica F.
07-31-2007, 08:36 PM
I've been in both of those situations.
and honestly, there are good and bad things about both. (i'll try to sum it up as little as i can) Sorry i couldn't resist myself.

1) Your team was ranked 2nd, and as alliance captains you reached the finals, giving a good competition, but loosing in the finals to a better alliance. You don't make it to Atlanta, but your team is mentioned and remembered as one of the best in the regional.
good:
-You made it a memorable year
-Took part in many notable matches
-Are known to others as a good team that year
-Well deserved exposure
bad:
-You didn't win
-No Atlanta ;(


2) After qualifications you are ranked at the low quarter of the table. You are lucky to be picked as the 3rd member of the 1st alliance, and you make it all the way to be regional champions on thier back. You make good defence, but there is no question about the fact that it were your 2 partners that really deserved the win.You get to go to Atlanta, but hardly anyone remembers how your robot looked like and what it did.
good:
-Atlanta
-If the two teams recognized you as the best pick, and your robot had the qualities that would best fit what is needed on the alliance, then you guys deserve it as much as the other teams.
-At the end of the day, the teams picked yours.
bad:
-People will say your team "didn't deserve it". as much as you can say people aren't mean enough to say it, they do, I've been in that situation and it sucks after all your hardwork.
-and of course the whole "no one remembers what your robot looked/did" thing


In all honesty, i'd go for number 1 because you did the best you can, and despite that fact you didn't win, you're remembered for pumping out an amazing robot. You don't need to win to be remembered.

Josh Murphy
07-31-2007, 08:47 PM
I would prefer to be rememberd as having a great robot year after year rather than being a tag along. There are cases time and time again where great robots end up in the bottom of the pack simply because of strength of opposition or partners in thier matches. If we were in this position and were picked by the #1 seeded team and won the event it would feel good because you helped contribute to the win, and I would not view this as being a tag along or just being lucky.

artdutra04
07-31-2007, 08:59 PM
Winning a regional is great, but I'd rather rank second on my own accord (hey, even as Finalists you still get a trophy ;)) than to be a fifth wheel on the winning alliance. Consistently good quality (even if they aren't necessarily Champion banner winners) robots builds a team reputation, and that's something that winning a regional alone won't bring about.

And even if we don't make it to Atlanta? Well, the team usually applies for one of the open spots in the fall every other year or so. So usually every team member should get the chance to compete in Atlanta at least twice in their four high school years.

gurellia53
07-31-2007, 09:28 PM
This year we had a similar situation to #1. We had one of the best scoring robots at the Wisconsin regional and we were ranked first at the end of qualifying. Unfortunately, in the semis, we lost to 2 ramp robots and 1 ramp/scoring hybrid which was mostly a ramp-bot. Even though we didn't win the regional or make it to Atlanta :( , all of us are extremely proud of our bot. Thats why I'd choose #1.

Atlanta may be fun, but having a great robot is funner. :D

enpurx
07-31-2007, 11:16 PM
Hmm... this is an interesting question.

We won the "Highest Rookie Seed" award even though team 2047 had a better bot than us, and we won the "Judges Award" for all the obstacles we had to overcome in order to finish the bot and make it to the regional.

I don't feel bad about winning the "Highest Rookie Seed" Award because our team made the best bot it could provided our circumstances (no mentors/teacher support, no place to build the bot, no way to make trips to get parts, and only a saws all and hand drill, etc.). Unfortunately, we had no idea that our lame 12" ramps and puny arm wouldn't stand a chance against any other team in the regional, but we got lucky with seeding alliances (we were paired with 111 numerous times) and made it to 5th place and became an Alliance Captain (we lost in the quarterfinals after 4 matches).

I loved the rush I got from being on the field during the elimination rounds, and I'm not sure if I would give that up if I had a chance to do it over. Plus, our team put up some good defense and our alliance brainstormed to develop some great tactics. On the other hand, I value the "Judges Award" more than the "Highest Rookie Seed," but I know my schoolmates feel the opposite. People would rather hear "champion" than "participant," and it hurts me to think about how much work everyone in FIRST has to do put in that goes virtually unrecognized by others if they don't bring home some metal.

As for recruiting new members to the team, I personally would not want kids on the team just because they want to be on a team with a winning record. I want kids to participate because they want to learn something new or foster their passion for robotics. If that means we will forever have a team of 12 kids or less, so be it. My theory is that it would be easier to recruit people to a well-known team with a line of great looking/functioning robots anyway.

People shouldn't be so quick to degrade the teams that "piggybacked" to Atlanta because they don't know how much work those teams had to put into their robot in order to get it how it is. That being said, I'd still choose number 1.

Daniel_LaFleur
08-01-2007, 07:27 AM
Win the regional as 3rd selection, hardly remembered.


Being on a team that barely had enough money to go to 1 regional, winning that regional and getting to go to the Championships has been invaluble to our team.

We did exactly the above (at BAE GSR), and it has gained us community awareness and support that otherwise would not have been possible.

You (the FIRST community) may not remember us, but the memories of that win will last a long time with our students and in our town.

JesseK
08-01-2007, 10:42 AM
Indeed a win that's hardly remembered by FIRST is probably greatly remembered by the community. 1885 won Rookie All-Star out first year, something that you'd scoff at if you saw the way our first robot performed -- but the recognition in the county and community, combined with the fact that the following year another county school gets the regional Rookie All-Star award, gives our teams much more benefit than if we had made a "great" robot and got knocked out in the finals.

Getting silver is something great to take to sponsors. Yet they also love it when you come back and say "we were successful enough to make it to Atlanta, how can you help us get there to show off the robot you helped us build?".

In essence, complaining about "piggy-backing" is not a valid argument in my opinion -- you might as well complain about the lottery for Atlanta spots. They made a game this year that had several things to do in order to score points, allowing a broad range of experience from the different teams to create a successful robot. If there's ever a year where "the best robot that only does this one strategy will always hands down win" then you'll be hard-pressed to find rookies and an audience the year after.

Tottanka
08-06-2007, 05:59 AM
Being on a team that barely had enough money to go to 1 regional, winning that regional and getting to go to the Championships has been invaluble to our team.

We did exactly the above (at BAE GSR), and it has gained us community awareness and support that otherwise would not have been possible.

You (the FIRST community) may not remember us, but the memories of that win will last a long time with our students and in our town.


I might be wrong, but beeing ranked 5th in Archemidis is a great thing to be remembered for, and i personnaly know that i remember your bot.

Bomberofdoom
08-06-2007, 06:37 AM
I have a different, #2 scenario, because this one directly applies to us this year at the boston regional:

Your team puts up a good showing, managing to get around a 4-5 tube average. It seems that however hard you try, you just cannot seem to win a match. The "algorithm of death" seems to be taking its toll on you. You play matches against 121 and 1403. You find yourself near the end of the rankings. However, some good scouts have seen that your team has some talent. Come down to alliance selections, the top 8 is a little off. It seems the "algorithm of death" may have struck again with some very high numbered teams making the top 8, not necessarily for their performance, but because of their partners. Their scouting is still new so they see your ranking as low as sign of weakness so you fall all the way to the 2nd half of the 2nd round of pickings. The 3rd alliance spots that your available and snatches you up.

You go onto the elims...the quarters were fairly competitive, some solid defense was played, but the other alliance fails to score enough points to contend with your solid alliance. You go onto the semifinals where you find your team firing on all cylinders. Your alliance gets a row of 8, not once, but twice. Onto the finals. By far the most difficult matchup, you are playing the number 1 alliance of arguably the 2 best robots at the competition. Their 3rd partner may not be the best, but they certainly hold their own. You win the first match, lose the 2nd, and enter the 3rd. Your alliance gives it their all. With 3 seconds left your team manages to climb your partners ramp which gives you a 15 pt. lead, thus WINNING THE REGIONAL. Your partners thank you, knowing if they had a different partner they may not have stood a chance.

Now what do you pick, 1 or 2?


We had a kind of same scenario, but we really reached the bottom of the ranking score-board, but the amazing team from Hadera, 1947 Black Knight Robotics saw our potential and although we were chosen as 3rd in their alliance, we still appreciate them choosing us, and eventually we were able to reach the Semi-Finals. In the Quartar-Finals, we lost first match because our other alliance robot had a little malfunction in the first match. But in the 2nd and 3rd we won because we and them were able to get on 1947's lifting system (which was way awesome!). Frankly, good scouting took us down, because the opponents dropped the tubes behind 1947 and our robot wasn't able to take off the tube from the fork we were supposed to get on, therefore we made our team lose (twice). But being able to reach the Semi's really gave us reputation among the other teams.

Next time in the Championships.

Daniel_LaFleur
08-06-2007, 11:23 AM
I might be wrong, but beeing ranked 5th in Archemidis is a great thing to be remembered for, and i personnaly know that i remember your bot.

Thank you, It's nice to be remembered.

5th on Archemedies was a great accomplishment for our very young team. And the kids on the team deserve a big congratulations for it.

My point was that we were the 3rd team chosen by the top seeded team at BAE GSR (team 501, The Power Knights). That choice has helped us get the word out about our team, in our community and helped us gain name recognition where we could not have before.

The topics question was which would you prefer? For us, in our situation, we'll take being the 3rd team chosen by the top seeded alliance.

InfernoX14
08-06-2007, 11:35 AM
My point was that we were the 3rd team chosen by the top seeded team at BAE GSR (team 501, The Power Knights). That choice has helped us get the word out about our team, in our community and helped us gain name recognition where we could not have before.

The topics question was which would you prefer? For us, in our situation, we'll take being the 3rd team chosen by the top seeded alliance.

However, the question was "would you prefer being piggy-backed to a win, or earn your finalist title as the alliance captain and have your robot remembered"

Your team was certainly not "piggy-backed" to the win at GSR. IIRC, the only match that your alliance lost was the one where your robot, I'm assuming, couldn't deploy its ramp. Most of those matches were won on ramp points.