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Carolyn Duncan
09-16-2001, 12:36 AM
http://www.chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=4395&group=webcast
Someone brought this to my attention and it makes me really sad to realize that this article is true. I know that propaganda has been used many times before, but didn't CNN realize that someone would know?

patrickrd
09-16-2001, 01:00 AM
If that's true, that's horrible. There is no way CNN could accidently use footage from 1991.

This goes to show how much the media can manipulate public opinion... Over the last few days I've been thinking of parallels between what is currently happening and the movie Wag the Dog. Obviously, thousands of people have died and the world trade center is destroyed, but how much are we influenced by what we see on TV? Clearly, by showing [fake] footage of palestinians celebrating the disaster, the media is trying to stir some emotion in Americans. Do they want us to think less of palestinians? Are they trying to raise support for bombing palestinian countries? Whatever the purpose, if they did indeed show false footage, CNN has many, many questions to answer.

Now even suppose palestinians were celebrating in the streets (as I think it is reasonable that at least some would). Why would palestinian children be celebrating? Sadly, they are brought up in a world where there minds are manipulated (from both parents and local media and other aspects of society) into thinking that America is a threat and an enemy. But with the same reasoning, how do we know that we are not being brought up to have certain prejudices and biases? It would be a mistake to think that we aren't. I guess the important question is to what extent we are being manipulated. Is it to such an extent that the public is supporting something that they otherwise wouldn't should they see it from multiple viewpoints?

I don't know about everyone else, but if CNN did knowingly use false footage, it is just scary to think what other false information we've been fed over the years.

Jay Lundy
09-16-2001, 03:21 AM
I also saw the footage of the Palestinian's celebrating. I was actually at school at the time and some other kids were in the room and it really got us angry to see them celebrating.

Anyway, I just want to say that I appreciate what the media has done for the citizens of the US in covering the events over the past week. Personally, I watched ABC the entire time and during the time I had the TV on from when I got home from school at 3 PM to when I went to bed at around 11 PM Peter Jennings was there reporting the news as it was happening; he hardly ever had a break. The media is working as hard as it can to provide us with non-stop updates and up to the minute live coverage. Another thing I noticed, NO COMMERCIALS. These companies have lost lots of money in ad revenue covering this for us.

As for the article that says CNN used videotapes from 10 years ago, how can you be sure they did? According to this article http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/13/2001&idMessage=8286 there was celebrating and it was filmed, but the film was agreed not to be shown. So what would the intelligent reporter do? Get footage of them celebrating from elsewhere and show it in its place. Also I am more likely to trust the credibility of CNN than a web site I have frankly never heard of before (which btw had several spelling mistakes.) If you read the comments posted below the article you'll notice the amount of evidence proving that it is very likely this footage is accurate.

In short, I say stop attacking the media and start acknoledging the incredible amount of time, effort, and money they have spent to cover this disaster.

Oh and one last thing, I'm not supporting CNN because I believe the Palestinians are evil and should be punished. I'm just acknoledging that it is possible some Palestinians could have been videotaped celebrating.

Matt Leese
09-16-2001, 10:18 AM
From what I've seen of the discussion over whether or not the footage is from 1991, I believe the general consesus is that is the authentic response to the terrorist attack. One thing I heard is that one of the children is wearing a soccer jersey from someone who played in '95-'96. Second of all, there are reports that Yasser Arafat has ordered his police to break up any and all celebrations for the attack and ordered the police to prevent any media from covering it. Given that the media does not want to lose total access to the Palestinian territories, they've stopped reporting on it (notice it had gone away in the past few days?). Apparently Israel media is all over it but no one's picking it up. In the past I've had severe problems with the biased nature of Indymedia and I think this shows through yet again today; they don't do particularly good reporting (although there have been times when they've done better). I trust CNN on this one as they don't particularly have a motive to deceive and they are more reputable than that.

Matt

Nate Smith
09-16-2001, 04:24 PM
Whether or not the footage that was used was current or old, what it shows IS happening...I've talked to quite a few people who have seen this occurance at both high school and college campuses in this area...

David Kelly
09-16-2001, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Nate Smith
Whether or not the footage that was used was current or old, what it shows IS happening...I've talked to quite a few people who have seen this occurance at both high school and college campuses in this area...

so you're saying that people are "cheering and celebrating" after this tragedy in this country? people like that just make me sick!!

Andy A.
09-16-2001, 08:59 PM
Few things:

One, people celebrated in the streets in the US at the end of the gulf war. To us, that was a declared and just war. We were on the moral high ground. We imposed restrictions and sanctions to keep the peace. Makes sense right? To Iraq and its allies, it was and is nothing more then internationally OK’d terrorism.

Who’s right?

At the end of the US civil war, the north celebrated its victory over the evil of slavery (among other things). Much of the south still remembers it as the War of Northern Aggression, an invasion and destruction of states and people’s rights.

Who's right?

We are raised with moral guides and principals, both from our parents and communities (including country). Sometimes those conflict with those of other people in the world. While the gulf war was a clear case of the US using its power in a just manner to most Americans, there are always two sides to an issue.

Here's another. At the end of WW2, it was obvious many European Jews were victimized. In an attempt to compensate and make right what was wrong, Israel was created. To Israel and its allies, it was the right thing to do. To the people living in that area already, it was seen as unfair, and in some ways, it is. America and its allies looked like some unfair parent who just came in and dictated were people could and couldn't live. It's basically apartied. Why are we surprised when some who feel they have been victimized celebrate our misfortune? Not that we should condone it, but we should at least understand it.

Who's right on any of this? I have no interest in saying, my views are my own. But please recognize that there are always two sides to an issue. Until you've looked at both, you can't make an informed choice, just an emotional one. Wars shouldn’t be started over emotions. Untill you understand why things happen, your in no place to fix them. Once you have made clear choices about your stance and have the facts, then is the time to act and hold up your moral obligation. I fear that’s not what our foreign policies are being based on. I hope that the Administration can make clear choices. So far, we havn't killed anyone, which is a good sign...

-Andy

Clark Gilbert
09-16-2001, 09:14 PM
I can see why they used old video........the first thing would be that they would have to know that it was going on from certain sources......plus would any american even want to be anywhere near them filming that??? i saw save an american camera man for some old footage.....

Mike Soukup
09-16-2001, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Andy A.
Who's right on any of this? I have no interest in saying, my views are my own. But please recognize that there are always two sides to an issue. Until you've looked at both, you can't make an informed choice, just an emotional one. Wars shouldn’t be started over emotions.

It's true that there are always two sides to an issue, but there's also a right & wrong side. It's pretty obvious which side is the wrong side on this issue. Killing innocent human beings is always morally wrong, no matter what. And it's obvious that in this case the passengers & people on the ground were innocent, therefore the act by the hijackers was morally wrong.

It doesn't matter what the US did prior to Tuesday to upset other countries or factions within those countries. Actions against civilians is wrong.

BTW, on the subject that started this thread. Multiple news outlets reported Palestinians celebrating the attack on the WTC & Pentagon. While it was wrong for CNN to use old footage (if it was in fact done) it does not change the fact that people celebrated. Showing the emotions of people on other countries is a valid news story.

Mike

Carolyn Duncan
09-16-2001, 10:34 PM
The problem I have with the old footage being used was that they just didn't come out and say it. I think most Americans would understand why new footage wasn't being used. I think it was wrong of CNN to try and pull one over on us. BTW, Jay, if you read the rest of the web site I think it says there that the story came from a Brazillian. Most of the stuff there is from countries other than the US, that would account for th spelling and grammatical errors. I hink the media is a very wonderful and powerful tool, and that it should be used properly. When it isn't used properly it's no better than having a corrupt government. Don't get me wrong, I think what the media has done by covering these stories is wonderful. I just hope that while these anchor people are getting their time in the spotlight, they act wisely. I don't know about you guys, but when I learned about propaganda, it was taught hand in hand with WW2. The war that some people belive was started because the US allowed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. Now, I don't want to start anything but... our government knew about impending terrorist strikes back in early summer. Seems fishy to me.

Nate Smith
09-17-2001, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by David Kelly


so you're saying that people are "cheering and celebrating" after this tragedy in this country? people like that just make me sick!!

As sad as it is, yes, it is happening. The reports that I've heard are that people originally from the middle east(not trying to stereotype here, but in the cases I've heard, that's where they've been from) who are now here going to school(first recieved report was from a metro Detroit area high school - not going to say which one, but college reports have since also been recieved,) may have not been "dancing in the streets," but the sentiment that we as a country somehow deserved the events of last week was definitely communicated(laughing and high-fiving I believe were the most common ways I've heard so far.)

I realize that there's also a lot of people now living in the US from that region that abhor the events of this past week as much as all of us do, but the fact remains that a few see this as the results of our own actions finally catching up with us.

Andy Baker
09-18-2001, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Mike Soukup


It's true that there are always two sides to an issue, but there's also a right & wrong side. It's pretty obvious which side is the wrong side on this issue. Killing innocent human beings is always morally wrong, no matter what.

Mike

Mike, you're a wise man. One of the things that will hopefully come out of this will be the fact that people will start to stand up for what they believe in.

When I was younger, I bought into ideology that there are always 2 sides to an arguement, and each side has good points. You know, the perspecive that we always have to keep an open mind and all. While having an open mind can be good... I am learning that taking a stand on one side of the arguement is a more worthwhile effot.

Too much open-mindedness causes right and wrong to be less black and white. If you cannot make decisions for yourself, you will waver in the gray area between right and wrong, doing no good.

I say pick a side, just as Bush is saying to the world... "either you are with us or against us."

OK... I'll stop preaching for now.

Andy B.

EddieMcD
09-19-2001, 07:15 PM
Killing innocent human beings is always morally wrong, no matter what.

Are you saying that dropping the Atomic Bombs on Japan was wrong? We killed 70,000 civilians with one bomb, and 60,000 with another. But then you look at the fact of how bad it would've been had we invaded. The Japanese were so tenacious, that casualties would be in the millions. But then you look back to the other side, and the fact that the military understands that they are always risking their life. So, should we have dropped the bomb?

Ironically, we are the only country to use a weapon of destrction like that. And IMO, I agree with Truman's decision. But then, that's only my opinion.

Mike Soukup
09-19-2001, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by EddieMcD
Are you saying that dropping the Atomic Bombs on Japan was wrong?
Yes. I didn't mention it in my previous post because I didn't want to get into a big discussion about it. I would love to talk about just war theory, but this isn't the proper place for it, so I'm keeping my comments to a minimum.

Mike

Matt Ryan
09-19-2001, 08:31 PM
I believe the use of the atomic bomb was right. Sure, 130000 people died in the two nuclear blasts, but compared to the millions of Americans and Japanese that would have died if there was an invasion, it was worth it.

It was war, and anything goes in war. I would rather have seen the bombs dropped on a legitimate military target to minimize civilian casualties, but then there would have been heavy defenses to get through. Unfortunately, the destruction includes civilians many times.

Carolyn Duncan
09-19-2001, 09:17 PM
I realize that there are always 2 sides to everything, and that they often conflict with each other. I just hope that we, by we I mean Americans, chose to do what is right in the grand scheme of things. We cannot base our opinion of right and wrong on our feelings, we must base it on the events and the facts. Wich means we should not be clouded by images of things passed shown to us as current goings on. We should have been informed of the origin of the footage and a note should have been added that "this was very simmialr to that which was occuring over there at the time." Does that make sense?
I think we were right to drop the bombs, how many Kamikazis (sp?) could we have lived through? They had bombs too.

"War is hell and all's fair in love and war."

Matt Ryan
09-20-2001, 05:29 AM
Well, all they used was false footage, but they weren't giving us false news.

Kyle Fenton
09-20-2001, 07:04 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/cnn.statement/

They clearly stated that they used no previous footage.

Carolyn Duncan
09-20-2001, 09:58 PM
I'm still wondering about the sunset issue. I don't want to say negative things about cnn but I'm still wondering.

Joe Ross
09-24-2001, 02:45 PM
Here is a list of rumors and coincidences that both have and haven't been proven true: http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/rumors.htm