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View Full Version : Possibility of FIRST game in water


patrickrd
06-03-2001, 07:07 AM
Lately there has been a lot of talk about 2vs2 vs 4vs0, lots of talk about battlebots and FIRST's lack of media coverage.... but.... if you want to do something different that will for sure capture media attention, make a game in water!

Okay, there are some safety issues... even though water is a poor conductor of electricity... but with proper guidelines and rules for "water-safe robots", these safety issues could be resolved. Besides, with the complicatedness of recent games, I think FIRST teams would be up for the challenge. I would be concerned about some rookie teams -- for making a robot that moves in water would be a lot more difficult than making a wheel turn.

But the real nice thing about a game in water is that it would for sure capture the media's attention, and I bet we could get TV coverage. Realistically, water may be difficult to pull off, but I think FIRST should be looking to do something... different...

It would also be a slap in the face to teams that design their drive systems early :p

Jeff Wong
06-03-2001, 10:24 AM
A water game would be a great challenge. However to rookie teams will not be so great. Also there are teams that does not have any engineers to help build robots(RAMBOTS). It would be such a great challenge but they could maybe give us an extra week to build it.

Jeff "Engineer????" Wong

mike o'leary
06-03-2001, 12:21 PM
if nothing else itd certaintly be fun

Andrew Dahl
06-03-2001, 02:08 PM
I think I have a pretty definitve answer for this-

1- the transmission of signals with the controllers is for lack of a better word- crappy
I tired as a engineering project wiht my tech ed class with rather disasterous results
(the innovation controllers do not react well with water!!

2- the arenas that would have the comps would probable not like having that much water

(remeber that 1 cubic foot of water weighs 62.4 lbs!!!!!!)
and just the mere hint of a possibit;ly of water leakage would dissuade them from having them there


dahl

Justin
06-03-2001, 06:41 PM
Hello All,

I wonder if anyone knows this. But...I just came across a 20/20 episode from 1993, this would be the "Rug Rage" year. Anyways...the small balls from that year were filled with water. I've watched video and I can't really tell how it effected the dynamics of this. I have heard that FIRST staff will not discuss this or acknowledge it if asked. So that a little known piece of historical FIRST trivia.

-Justin

Joe Ross
06-03-2001, 08:18 PM
I haven't seen the 20/20 video for several years (and I wasn't involved in the competiton back in 93) but it looked to me like the water was used only to add weight to the balls, not to change the motion. It would be the same effect if they had been completely filled with sand.

Would someone involved back then care to elaborate?

Gui Cavalcanti
06-03-2001, 08:56 PM
Sand definitely does not move the same way as water does in ball. Water would create ripple effects, which would affect ball dynamics and move them in different places when you don't want the ball moved. Sand just kind of settles...

Joe Ross
06-03-2001, 09:42 PM
it looked to me like the balls were completly filled with water, which would shouldn't cause any type of ripple effects.

Madison
06-04-2001, 10:49 AM
While I certainly think the addition of water elements to the game might be interesting, I can't help but wonder what all of the teams that don't have room for a permanent playing field would do.

It would certainly be a pain to have to refill a tank of water or something everytime we wanted practice, and then try to figure out what to do with it afterwards.

I think, in general, that complicated playing fields such as that are not likely because the resources of some teams don't permit them to build full size, or semi-permanent version of the field.

Matt Leese
06-04-2001, 11:49 AM
I believe the general consensus every time the idea of a water game is brought up is that the electrical wiring would be too difficult for many teams. Teams have problems wiring the robot now -- a lot of those teams would be at a loss because of water. It's not the fact that water's a poor conductor of electricity, just that it IS a conductor and it's a liquid. It's much harder to insulate against water because it can get just about anywhere because it's a liquid. And I doubt a "safety" manual would provide enough instruction to properly waterproof the robot (what about the motors?). And about '93, I knew about the water in the balls but why would FIRST refuse to comment on it?

Matt who's happy because he got a free soda from the soda machine....

Justin Ridley
06-04-2001, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Michael Krass


I think, in general, that complicated playing fields such as that are not likely because the resources of some teams don't permit them to build full size, or semi-permanent version of the field.



I think this is the main reason stopping a field of water, sand, ice or anything else for that matter. Not the fact that water would be hard to engineer around, but rather the fact that a playing field must be able to be built and maintained by any team, anywhere in the country. For that matter, I don't think we'll ever have objects on the field that a team can not buy (balls) or easily make (floppies).

Justin

David Kelly
06-04-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Matt Leese
And about '93, I knew about the water in the balls but why would FIRST refuse to comment on it?


Could there be something in FIRST's past that they are ashamed of? Did something happen that year that prevents them from saying something? Or do they never comment on past games.


I would like to know why they won't comment on it.

Gui Cavalcanti
06-04-2001, 04:51 PM
The playing fields have not always been portable. The first competition, Maize Craze, featured arenas full of corn; somehow I don't think that's too portable.

Kate Leach
06-04-2001, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by David Kelly:

Could there be something in FIRST's past that they are ashamed of? Did something happen that year that prevents them from saying something? Or do they never comment on past games.

I would like to know why they won't comment on it.

The year of '93 and the water filled balls didn't go nearly as well as originally desired. They like to try to pretend it never happened. If you know some of them well enough, when you ask them about it they just laugh it off and go on with whatever else they're doing. ;)

So far as playing fields besides water, why not go back to the corn-type-stuff from back in the day of '92?

Justin
06-04-2001, 07:59 PM
Okay,

As far as the portability of Corn...what we need to remember is that portability was not an issue in 92. Because there was one comp...period. They didn't need to move the field @ all so. I for one would love to see corn just to harken back to the old days pay homage to where it all began :-)

-Justin

Gui Cavalcanti
06-04-2001, 08:02 PM
That'd be great. Finally, teams would have to invent more creative drive trains than the ever-so-dreaded casters and wheelchair wheels. Treads all the way baby!

- Tread masta', fashion disasta', all Peacemaker

Matt Leese
06-05-2001, 06:49 AM
I think the corn playing field was quite portable. After all, it was only 12'x12'. That's much more portable than a lot of the playing fields we had. Particularly since that was the WHOLE playing field.

Matt

Anthony S.
06-05-2001, 09:23 PM
A water game would be interesting. But what would the human player do? Put on some scuba gear and go under water and do something? There is plenty of water in Florida, I don't know about all the other Reginal sights. The people at FIRST are brillian, they could pull it off. It would take a lot of work.

I hope next years game was as fun as this years game.

mike o'leary
06-05-2001, 09:26 PM
thered be plenty for a human player to do...maybe they could use a water gun or hose or something to push balls around

Jeff Wong
06-05-2001, 10:08 PM
There's plenty of stuff human players can do. They can throw those balls or what they are using into the water. There could be this mechanical arm they must control to pick stuff up from the bottom of the pool. There is endless stuff that a human player can do.

I would love to see FIRST make a water game one year.

mike o'leary
06-06-2001, 02:31 PM
i gotta agree with mr wong here: im all for a first water game