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astephen68
03-29-2008, 11:28 AM
I got to say 1114 robot is one of the best i have seen this year and it has been dominating, not like last years where they did dominate but not as much as this years.

I predict the winning alliance in atlanta would be 1114,2056 and team 70

any other predicitons

EricH
03-29-2008, 11:34 AM
Let's see what the divisions look like first. It's entirely possible that those three aren't in the same division and the winner comes from a different division.

astephen68
03-29-2008, 11:37 AM
Very true

MasterChief 573
04-06-2008, 12:47 PM
This might be a bold and slightly pretentious statement, but I predict that at least one team on the winning alliance will be from GLR. Thats just how impressive the robots there were.

Tottanka
04-06-2008, 01:01 PM
This might be a bold and slightly pretentious statement, but I predict that at least one team on the winning alliance will be from GLR. Thats just how impressive the robots there were.

i predict that at least one bot will be from Midwest. It was much more impressive, and it was week 1.
that robot will probably also be from Waterloo and GTR though :P

MasterChief 573
04-06-2008, 01:12 PM
i predict that at least one bot will be from Midwest. It was much more impressive

That my friend is debatable.

cziggy343
04-06-2008, 01:31 PM
That my friend is debatable.

i think that they both were very VERY competitive! and from both of these regionals, i predict that at least two will be on einstein.

EDIT: note the at least=]

Rick TYler
04-06-2008, 01:54 PM
No matter which robots win, none of them would be any good in a water game.

cziggy343
04-06-2008, 01:55 PM
No matter which robots win, none of them would be any good in a water game.

this is very true:p

AdamHeard
04-06-2008, 01:56 PM
I'd put money on a team with a 1 in it's number winning.

Eric Bareiss
04-06-2008, 02:14 PM
39, 330 or 254, west coast is gonna bring it home this year

Beth Sweet
04-06-2008, 02:19 PM
If I was going solely on robot excellence and driver talent, I'd put 1114 on there. Unfortunately, they've got a target on them the size of Texas. Thus, BethNack predicts (yes, I know, totally legit...) that someone is gonna try to take them out. I hope I'm wrong, but... something in me tells me I'm not. I do hope that teams will demonstrate enough class and GP not to go Battlebots on the field...

That being said, the prediction I will make is this: the winning alliance will be composed of 3 teams fully capable of hurdling. It will contain a team well known for strategic excellence, and I believe at least one team from either GLR or MWR

Cartwright
04-06-2008, 02:24 PM
This would be my hope for the winner of the 2008 FRC Championship.

-If the Divisions are set up Sepentine (based on The Blue Alliance setup): Archimedes will take it with 1114, 2056, 341

-If the Divisions are set up Normal (based on The Blue Alliance setup):
Curie will take it with 1114, 233, ????

chaoticprout
04-06-2008, 02:26 PM
If 330 and 1114 are in the same alliance...yup ;)

Guy Davidson
04-06-2008, 02:28 PM
That being said, the prediction I will make is this: the winning alliance will be composed of 3 teams fully capable of hurdling.

I agree with you until here. I don't see the need for all three robots on an alliance to be able to hurdle. It does give you some strategic flexibility, but if I had to choose, I take an excellent defender / ball knocker over a mediocre hurdler every time. During the elimination, what you really need are good and experienced drivers with reliable robots.

I agree with Beth, the winning alliance will have at least one team noted for their strategic excellence. That team will also be the big kahuna on that alliance, and the lead hurdler. They will grab one of the next best hurdlers with thir first pick of the draft, and score a very strong defender and ball knocker with their third pick.

cziggy343
04-06-2008, 02:29 PM
for some reason... i think that somehow, someway, somebody will knock off 1114... something just gives me that feeling... ive been working out strategy... but i doubt it would work:D but that wont stop me from trying;)

Tottanka
04-06-2008, 02:29 PM
This would be my hope for the winner of the 2008 FRC Championship.

-If the Divisions are set up Sepentine (based on The Blue Alliance setup): Archimedes will take it with 1114, 2056, 341

-If the Divisions are set up Normal (based on The Blue Alliance setup):
Curie will take it with 1114, 233, ????
some eligable teams are still missing
NYC isn't done yet, and some teams are pending

waialua359
04-06-2008, 04:30 PM
Hard to predict when the final divisions with teams aren't even posted yet. NYC regional will definitely change the current setup/picture.
Once that comes out on Wednesday, I presume, the top teams will strategically already be looking for one another, weighing pros/cons of pairing with each other.
The only way it wont happen is if, a team(s) rides the wave to the top and breaks the alliances apart.
1114 is a clear frontrunner, however, no one robot, can win it all by itself at CMP where there will be many robots that can hurdle quickly and efficiently.
If they or a good potential teammate ends up at #1 seed, many of the predictions will come true about their awesome team. They will be sure to be either the #1 seed or the #1 pick, whether they accept or not. That we know is a guarantee.
I would instead look at other divisions to see if any 1-2-3 combo could take on 1114 and their alliance at Einstein.
I think defense will be a much larger factor at CMP and the refs will let defense play out a whole lot more.

MasterChief 573
04-06-2008, 04:32 PM
I agree with you until here. I don't see the need for all three robots on an alliance to be able to hurdle. It does give you some strategic flexibility, but if I had to choose, I take an excellent defender / ball knocker over a mediocre hurdler every time. During the elimination, what you really need are good and experienced drivers with reliable robots.

I agree with Beth, the winning alliance will have at least one team noted for their strategic excellence. That team will also be the big kahuna on that alliance, and the lead hurdler. They will grab one of the next best hurdlers with thir first pick of the draft, and score a very strong defender and ball knocker with their third pick.

I was gonna make the exact same point, after two regionals of using a robot that can do nothing but race and knock the ball off I'm convinced that it is a very effective form of strategy, mainly because if your good enough at it you can score in the same range consistently each match. However, with that being said, a speed demon/ball knocker would have to also be able to score at least 12 points during the autonomous period in order to be Einstein because I doubt that any robot can get more than 12 laps during the regular period (we've done 11).

Guy Davidson
04-06-2008, 04:39 PM
I actually think the laps won't matter too much. After autonomous is over, you have two choices (as a third robot, as there are only two balls): run laps or play defense. If you can run eight or ten laps, you earn 16-20 points. On the other hand, if you can slow down an opposite hurdler enough to cost them 2 or 3 hurdles, not only you are worth about the same point differential to your alliance, but also you throw the opposing alliance off their game plan. And that could be worth even more.

MasterChief 573
04-06-2008, 04:41 PM
It depends on the circumstances, but yeah I definitely agree that in some situations defense will be more important than laps. In fact, I've seen some of those circumstances first hand already.

waialua359
04-06-2008, 04:45 PM
I actually think the laps won't matter too much. After autonomous is over, you have two choices (as a third robot, as there are only two balls): run laps or play defense. If you can run eight or ten laps, you earn 16-20 points. On the other hand, if you can slow down an opposite hurdler enough to cost them 2 or 3 hurdles, not only you are worth about the same point differential to your alliance, but also you throw the opposing alliance off their game plan. And that could be worth even more.

I agree. Your team showed how defense was worth more than just trying to do laps. As great as it is to see fast robots avoid traffic and spin around the track, they simply are not worth that much points once hybrid is over.
Wasting 20 seconds and preventing a team from a hurdle is much more effective.
Our team was able to always get 2 hurdles or more per match in Hawaii, even though defense was played on us and even if we had trouble at times, grabbing the ball. With the laps included, that's a minimum of 20++ points always. That's equivalent to a fast lap bot alway doing 10 laps. Hurdles are just worth so much more and teams that can prevent/delay hurdles is a much bigger play, IMO, than anything else. Ive seen many matches where teams get 5+ hurdles in a match, but if you watch, almost no defense is played on them at all.

AdamHeard
04-06-2008, 06:51 PM
39, 330 or 254, west coast is gonna bring it home this year

Don't forget 968, 987 and 1717. All of which had amazing performances on the west coast.


Also, 8 and 294 will be some solid Defenders that can get a few hurdles if needed.

Frenchie
04-06-2008, 07:38 PM
My prediciton:

Due to the randomness of the qualification and elimination process in Atlanta, none of the robots explicitely mentionned in this thread so far will take the gold home.

There will be at least 2 good hurdlers in the winning alliance

The game will not be the same once on the big stage.

Francois

Akash Rastogi
04-06-2008, 07:41 PM
This would be my hope for the winner of the 2008 FRC Championship.

-If the Divisions are set up Sepentine (based on The Blue Alliance setup): Archimedes will take it with 1114, 2056, 341

-If the Divisions are set up Normal (based on The Blue Alliance setup):
Curie will take it with 1114, 233, ????

I don't know if 341 is that strong of a robot this year. But yes, it is highly competitive.

brentmcjunkin
04-06-2008, 07:54 PM
1114 is looking like the best team this year but any thing could happen and they could break or they could have a bad alliance

Dan Richardson
04-06-2008, 08:04 PM
I feel fortunate this year I've got to see a lot of great robots live and in person.

Last Year 5 Einstein Robots competed at the Florida Regional.

233, mind blowingly awesome 'nuff said.

But people seem to forget about the rest, 179 when they weren't suffering from mechanical problems was hard to stop, people seemed to forget they ran 3 lines and hurdled 5 times ( 1 was a cap, that got pushed over ) to knock out 103 in the semi's. 1251, helped run the show with 233, a very fast and effective hurdling machine. 69 as well in those finals, knocking over the first ball in hybrid effectively and running 3-4 lines, it was pretty impressive.

79 showed what they can do in Florida and proved what they can do again in bayou, put up 4-5 hurdles and run 3,4 lines in auton with their awesome collision avoidance. 103 has a great bot and they've proved it at a few regionals. Teams like 342, 108, and 180 will all make differences the champs.

At the bayou regional, there were a few amazing machines like 118, 230, 148, 79 ( again) and 16. 16 has really come on strong this year, they kept up with 1114 at midwest, and surpassed the competition in New Orleans, they will be one of the teams to beat in Atlanta. 118 has had some mechanical troubles but really started to show what they could do in elims, they have a very powerful launcher, and system in general, if they pair up with another super team they'll be a tough one to stop. 148, its hard to believe they won't be picking, but if they aren't they'll be a strong pick, strong defense, good autonomous, if you want a lap runner, they are the cream of the crop. In my opinion three hurdlers crowd the field, a strong defensive bot, or "role player" with a good autonomous is going to be the way to go in the second round picking this year, if 148 isn't picking they are perfect for this role, if they last that long.

So putting it all together, I think there will be a few Florida Regional teams representing again this year, its a somewhat underrated very powerful regional, proving again how far Florida FIRST has come in the past few years.

I can't wait to see how the divisions shape up, I don't think it will take 3 hurdlers this year, but 2 good hurdlers who can handle lots of defense ( which is key ) and 3 strong autons, Alliances with well coordinated autons that knock down balls, and run a few lines as well as put up good hurdling scores are going to be hard to beat.

This too me is what makes 1114 so good, sure they can put up 8 hurdles, there are a few others that can put up 7, but they can knock off 2 balls and run 5 lines, at that point as we say in the south.. Doneskies. But then again, we have said the same thing for a few teams in the past few years, and a diamond in the rough usually proves us all wrong.

Josh Fox
04-06-2008, 08:19 PM
I see a lot of very good points towards bots like 1114, 39 (and others not on the top of my head right now), but I still say that the winning alliance is going to be the dark horse of the competition. I look at last year as my basis for this. I never dreamed that anyone would be able to take down the ridiculously powerful 71/179/233 alliance but I was proven wrong. Through great strategy and teamwork even the most powerful alliance can be beaten. (I had another one of those OH-MY-GOSH-ATLANTA-IS-IN-LESS-THAN-TWO-WEEKS moments typing this :D )

brentmcjunkin
04-06-2008, 08:42 PM
(I had another one of those OH-MY-GOSH-ATLANTA-IS-IN-LESS-THAN-TWO-WEEKS moments typing this :D )[/QUOTE]
I cant wait either

JB987
04-06-2008, 08:59 PM
I see a lot of very good points towards bots like 1114, 39 (and others not on the top of my head right now), but I still say that the winning alliance is going to be the dark horse of the competition. I look at last year as my basis for this. I never dreamed that anyone would be able to take down the ridiculously powerful 71/179/233 alliance but I was proven wrong. Through great strategy and teamwork even the most powerful alliance can be beaten. (I had another one of those OH-MY-GOSH-ATLANTA-IS-IN-LESS-THAN-TWO-WEEKS moments typing this :D )

...and a belief that 3 good machines and their crews all decked out in maroon could compete with any alliance:D

Jonathan Norris
04-06-2008, 09:01 PM
there are a bunch of teams that have a good chance at it this year: 1114, 217, 233, 254, 968, 330, 2056, 1024, 71, 111, 118, 16, 39, 987, 1717, 1625, 121, 230, 148 and I could go on... It will all come down to who gets lucky, makes the best alliance selection, and who gets lucky (really with that many matches in the elims luck has alot to do with it).

Herodotus
04-06-2008, 09:09 PM
I actually don't believe 1114 will win this year. I know, it sounds blasphemous considering how they easily have the single best robot this year, and their drivers are top notch, but that doesn't seem to define who wins Champs. It seems the winners of Champs is usually the alliance that best balances all aspects of the game. Pure, all out hurdling will not win this year, just as pure tube scoring could not win last year.

I predict the winning alliance will have one great hurdler, and two decent hurdlers, but one of those hurdlers will be playing defense. From how things would go, I would be willing to bet that most of the Einstein matches will not break 100, for the simple fact that at least one of the alliances is going to almost always be reduced to one trackball and chances are you will see two or more trackballs being taken out of the question due to defense.

waialua359
04-06-2008, 09:15 PM
That's an interesting point.
I wonder what 2 powerhouses on each side of the field will bring to Einstein. Will it be an all out offensive battle, or will it be a defensive struggle?
My guess is the San Diego regional finals is more indicative of what we will see.
OR, depending on who/what that third robot can/will do, it may alter the outcome of the type of match we will see. Defensive strategies can greatly alter the type of "show" we will see.

T3_1565
04-06-2008, 09:36 PM
I definatly see 1114 winning this year, just because its a lot harder this year to stop them. Every other year, some team has a good enough bot to keep up and defend them (last year was running them into the rack, which everyone remembers) but this year, although you can slow them down, you can't do it for nearly as long, IMO, as you could last year.

That and they aren't dumb, they will be picking good alliance partners as well (or get picked ethier way) but they have improved greatly over the last couple regionals, and I think they deserve to win as well, they make amazing robots all the time lol.

Good luck 1114, you better bring gold to Canada this year :D:D:D

XaulZan11
04-06-2008, 09:53 PM
I agree that 1114 probably won't win. Although 1114 is clearly the best team and has the best chance of winning, there are just too many factors involved. Bad alliances partners in qualification, a top ranked seed breaking up alliances, robots breaking in eliminations, being picked by a weaker alliance...there are just too many things that can go wrong. I do think they do deserve to win (I know I'll be rooting for them), but just looking at the 300+ teams at the championship, the chances of just one team winning is fairly small no matter how dominate they are.

If I had place my money on one team, it would be 1114. However, thier chances of winning are very small (just because of the amount of teams and luck invovled).

I think 3 hurdlers will win. Both of the first two robots will be very good hurdlers and at least one will be a team that has been mentioned in conversations of the best hurdlers. The third robot can hurdle, very good hybrid, can play good defense and experienced enough to face different situations.

I'm interested to see how solely lap/defense robots, like 148, are selected. If I was selecting an alliance, I would not take a robot that couln't hurdler. There have been too many eliminations and matches affected by an alliance main hurdler breaking down. I would take a team that may not get as many laps but can hurdler if need be.

James Mullenax
04-06-2008, 09:54 PM
I know that my team (Team 1629 GACO) may not be the best robot out there but i do believe that we can help "put up a fight" we would be a great pick... We get bout 4 or 5 lines in hybrid mode plus we are extremly fast and moblie as well as a good hurdler/launcher... thats right we catapult it!... I will have to agree with previous statements that a well balanced alliance can easily take down a "powerhouse" robot... In buckeye our alliance took down the powerhouse bot 1024... once, but still, any alliance can take down anyone else... I feel that stratagy will play a HUGE part in this years champs...

GOOD LUCK TO ALL TEAMS... GO GaCo!!!!!!!!!!!

Amanda Morrison
04-06-2008, 10:00 PM
Not to repeat the admirations of others, but really, if 1114 doesn't win this year, I'll assume they have a curse upon them worse than the Cubs' billy goat.

Akash Rastogi
04-06-2008, 10:01 PM
I agree that 1114 probably won't win. Although 1114 is clearly the best team and has the best chance of winning, there are just too many factors involved. Bad alliances partners in qualification, a top ranked seed breaking up alliances, robots breaking in eliminations, being picked by a weaker alliance...there are just too many things that can go wrong.

Sorry, but I think that 1114 is probably one of the only robots that may be able to win a match by themselves in qualifiers even with bad alliance partners. Granted, they are not going up against another "superpower" team as I like to call them.

An average of 8 hurdles I think? That's just nuts.

I know that my team (Team 1629 GACO) may not be the best robot out there but i do believe that we can help "put up a fight" we would be a great pick... We get bout 4 or 5 lines in hybrid mode plus we are extremly fast and moblie as well as a good hurdler/launcher... thats right we catapult it!... I will have to agree with previous statements that a well balanced alliance can easily take down a "powerhouse" robot... In buckeye our alliance took down the powerhouse bot 1024... once, but still, any alliance can take down anyone else... I feel that stratagy will play a HUGE part in this years champs...

GOOD LUCK TO ALL TEAMS... GO GaCo!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, there are actually a lot of teams like this that can help put up a fight. Take us for example, we can hurdle an average of 4 and we know how to play defense and how to strategize well. Like I said, there's alot of teams like this.

fredliu168
04-06-2008, 10:02 PM
I'm betting on 1114 and/or 330 will take it.

65_Xero_Huskie
04-06-2008, 10:09 PM
Hrm.
Theres def. a lot of debate onto who is going to win. However.
If 1114 wasnt to win it all, they HAVE to have number 1 seed spot.
If they are not #1 or picked by #1 (considering they are the top shooter) i Highly doubt they will win it all.
Also.
If 1114,330,??
vs.
217,1024,??
Id have to say it would def. be a 3rd match great finals.

987HighRoller
04-06-2008, 10:26 PM
An average of 8 hurdles I think? That's just nuts.


I don't think they have an average of 8 hurdles per match. I'm pretty sure the most hurdles by a single robot in one match (with proof) stands at 7.

hillale
04-06-2008, 11:09 PM
I'd like to point out the fact that 1114 has yet to win a division at champs. It has been proven throughout the season that they are defeatable. Although it seems to be much much much more difficult when they have a hand-picked alliance brought around by the beginning of the elimination rounds. However, with the caliber and scoring record of many of the teams attending champs, there is a decent likelihood of a team capable of toppling them coming together. It all depends on who winds up in who's division. I believe that the winning alliance will include 3 hurdlers. One with a good hybrid (multiple lines with at least 1 ball), the other two with at least a line. One that can place at the end (it may come down to that to win). At least one that can easily knock off opponent's balls at the end. The third (least productive) hurdler will play defense until one of the others is taken out of commission or stops functioning on its own (if all things go to plan they will play defense the entire time, breaks happen though).

Alec


ps

I'd thoroughly not mind being on that team

Battering_Ram
04-06-2008, 11:23 PM
Im going to say its gonna be the darkhorse taking home the gold. But I think the alliance that knocks out 1114 will be remebered more even if they get ousted in the next round.

I believe a team that can handle any complication (breakdown, good defense, 1114 making it rain, etc) will be really valuable, This sounds like common sense but IMO the all-arounders who know how to and CAN play (execute)defense/offense on demand will make it it to the big dance.

IMO an alliance will consist 2 hurdlers and "special ops" bot. I know people will want to have insurance for a hurdler breaking down but the old proverbs state "Offense wins games. Defense wins championships" and "A great defense is a good offense." A team that never scores cant win, may sound cliche but its definately true.

No matter what I can not wait to compete and watch. 10 days is too long!

Akash Rastogi
04-06-2008, 11:33 PM
Im going to say its gonna be the darkhorse taking home the gold. But I think the alliance that knocks out 1114 will be remebered more even if they get ousted in the next round.

I believe a team that can handle any complication (breakdown, good defense, 1114 making it rain, etc) will be really valuable, This sounds like common sense but IMO the all-arounders who know how to and CAN play (execute)defense/offense on demand will make it it to the big dance.

IMO an alliance will consist 2 hurdlers and "special ops" bot. I know people will want to have insurance for a hurdler breaking down but the old proverbs state "Offense wins games. Defense wins championships" and "A great defense is a good offense." A team that never scores cant win, may sound cliche but its definately true.

No matter what I can not wait to compete and watch. 10 days is too long!

I agree with that 100%. Seriously that's what our drivers have trained for and that's what we showed in both NJ and Chesapeake. Special Ops is an awesome name for that type of robot. Ours is just one of those robots that can hurdle competitively and can give the opponent hell on the field in terms of defense. Alliance partners that we had can also agree with me on this that our strategies were awesomely effective on the field.

Again, totally agree.

Nawaid Ladak
04-06-2008, 11:47 PM
wow, so were hearing a lot of 1114 vs the field arguements here. lol

1114 right now reminds me of Tiger Woods right now, i won't make my prediction for the championships until late next Sunday.

btw: is that a good comparison 1114 to FIRST is like Tiger Woods to Golf

waialua359
04-06-2008, 11:52 PM
I would say 71 is like the tiger woods of golf. cant overlook the 4 national/world titles and the fact they were in the title match last year.
:D Anyone can have a great year.
As for most successful track record, even though no world titles, since their inception, IMO, hands down, the cheesy poofs! With a track record of winning about 90+ percent of regionals attended since 1999, that is simply amazing!
Of all the teams every year, I look forward to "their" bot every year!

fredliu168
04-06-2008, 11:52 PM
btw: is that a good comparison 1114 to FIRST is like Tiger Woods to Golf

I think its more like 1114 to FIRST is like Lebron James to basketball

Hes (probably) the best player in basketball, but needs a team to win the entire championship.

Nawaid Ladak
04-07-2008, 12:52 AM
I think its more like 1114 to FIRST is like Lebron James to basketball

Hes (probably) the best player in basketball, but needs a team to win the entire championship.

i think i've made that comparision before, i think in the gameday chat somewhere

FIRST=NBA
06" Team 25 Robot = Kobe Bryant
08" Team 1114 Robot = Lebron James

edit: the only thing that defeates this theory is: Lebron James put the Cavs on his back last year and took them to the finals...reminds me of 25 in 2006 (no disrespect to teams 195 and 968, they were great machines too.) and kobe needed someone to win: aka Shaq. i think 1114 will need this to succeed in Atlanta (217, 2056, 67 etc.)

GaryVoshol
04-07-2008, 07:14 AM
I predict that at least one team on the winning alliance will be from GLR.

i predict that at least one bot will be from Midwest.
Those aren't mutually exclusive sets. :cool:

Tom Bottiglieri
04-07-2008, 08:08 AM
Whatever alliance that has 2 teams in the top 20 of the OPR standings and doesn't choke on Einstein will win.

T3_1565
04-07-2008, 08:46 AM
So many people are talking about 1114 vs the world! wow.. Remember that 1114 will be high in the seeding of whatever division they are (almost a garuntee) and won't have bad partners. The championships have loads of good bots, 1114 has amazing scouting, therefore there will be good bots on 1114's team as well.

Remember its not a three vs one competition! 1114's team will be just as big of deal as 1114 themselves! :D

fredliu168
04-07-2008, 08:49 AM
So many people are talking about 1114 vs the world! wow.. Remember that 1114 will be high in the seeding of whatever division they are (almost a garuntee) and won't have bad partners.

They won't have bad partners, but they may not have the chance to form a superalliance. A team may "ride the wave" and be ranked first, breaking up the top 8.

Although its more than likely they will have a great alliance.

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 08:56 AM
and, if memory serves me correctly... 1114 has yet to be a number one seed anywhere... which means there are other teams that WILL get up there. i dont see 1114 running the table in any division.

Storcky
04-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Just out of curiosity...
How does TBA get the list of who's going to CMP? Is it from who's eligible? Because I noticed that 876 and 1872 are listed on TBA but not on the FIRST website. I don't know if they are pending, but I was just wondering.

fredliu168
04-07-2008, 09:00 AM
and, if memory serves me correctly... 1114 has yet to be a number one seed anywhere... which means there are other teams that WILL get up there. i dont see 1114 running the table in any division.

Actually I believe they were ranked first in GTR
http://www2.usfirst.org/2008comp/events/ON/rankings.html

They were 3rd in midwest and 3rd in waterloo

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 09:01 AM
Actually I believe they were ranked first in GTR
http://www2.usfirst.org/2008comp/events/ON/rankings.html

They were 3rd in midwest and 3rd in waterloo

well... ive been proved wrong yet again:p thanks for checking that:D

T3_1565
04-07-2008, 09:01 AM
and, if memory serves me correctly... 1114 has yet to be a number one seed anywhere... which means there are other teams that WILL get up there. i dont see 1114 running the table in any division.

They were number 1 in GTR, and they will probably be better in championships (assuming they don't crack under pressure), then in the GTR. They have improved in leaps and bounds with each competition they have been in, and I don't see them getting any worse lol:yikes:

EDIT: Drat.. beat me...

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 09:03 AM
They were number 1 in GTR, and they will probably be better in championships (assuming they don't crack under pressure), then in the GTR. They have improved in leaps and bounds with each competition they have been in, and I don't see them getting any worse lol:yikes:

EDIT: Drat.. beat me...

i never said that they would get worse... im still holding out on the competition getting better:D

fredliu168
04-07-2008, 09:06 AM
From what I see, the championships are as predictable as the WPT :P

Bcliff358
04-07-2008, 02:30 PM
I just wanna say that anything can happen at championships, and the least likely robots can win. This being said i would still go with the powerhouse teams due to the skill needed to put up high scores. My favorites are 217, 1114, 330, 1124 and finally 987 for the repeat.

BBnum3
04-07-2008, 04:11 PM
One thing that tends to happen at the Championship due to the low number of qualification matches is that a team who is not the strongest can "fluke" to the top of the standings due to good luck and/or alliance partners. We have all seen this discussed before and seen it in action in person, so I will not go into the details of it, but this is one of those factors that can severely affect the outcome of the divisions. When the weaker number 1 seeded team picks the stronger teams also seeded in the top 8, the powerhouse alliances can often get split up. Thus, it can be very hard to pick one team to win at all because of bad luck scenarios such as this. That said, if there is one robot that might be good enough to carry any alliance to Einstein, that robot has to be 1114.

Jonathan Norris
04-07-2008, 04:28 PM
I know everyone likes to look at the top teams this year and predict them winning the championship, and most likely one of them will be on the winning alliance. But what I am looking for is this years 987 of last year, or 296 in '06, the team that makes major improvements over their regional performance. if you remember back to 06' a big part of 217, 296, and 522 winning performance was 296 improving from a 'good' team in their regional competitions to an 'elite' team at the championship. The same thing basically happened last year with 987 (I'm not as familiar with their regional performance), but I believe they improved a lot at the championship and really knew how to drive that bot in the elims (remember some of the ridiculous caps they made with defense on them??).

So watching the webcasts on friday and saturday morning I'll be looking for those teams that really step up their performance and fly under the radar a bit. Because I know all the top teams will be hunting for those great alliance selections, some picks may not have the pedigree thats expected and surprise some people.

Edit: post 610!!! w00t

Dan Richardson
04-07-2008, 04:32 PM
But what I am looking for is this years 987 of last year,


Hrmmm could 987 be this years 987? I wonder.....

Jonathan Norris
04-07-2008, 04:38 PM
Hrmmm could 987 be this years 987? I wonder.....

They are already on my elite team list, they may not be on everyone's radar but I would think after last year and how good they were at SD and LA this year they are on the elite team list already.

Bcliff358
04-07-2008, 05:46 PM
i think i've made that comparision before, i think in the gameday chat somewhere

FIRST=NBA
06" Team 25 Robot = Kobe Bryant
08" Team 1114 Robot = Lebron James

edit: the only thing that defeates this theory is: Lebron James put the Cavs on his back last year and took them to the finals...reminds me of 25 in 2006 (no disrespect to teams 195 and 968, they were great machines too.) and kobe needed someone to win: aka Shaq. i think 1114 will need this to succeed in Atlanta (217, 2056, 67 etc.)

Then what was 71 in 2002? Hmmm... actually i don't think there is any athlete as good as their robot that year. However 1114's bot is up there as one of the best all time.

65_Xero_Huskie
04-07-2008, 06:20 PM
Then what was 71 in 2002? Hmmm... actually i don't think there is any athlete as good as their robot that year. However 1114's bot is up there as one of the best all time.

71 in 2002 had to have been the best designed bot for the games strategy ever.
plopping down and taking all match to move across the field. And getting max score almost every time :O

JB987
04-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Hrmmm could 987 be this years 987? I wonder.....

Shhhhhhhhh....;)

waialua359
04-07-2008, 06:35 PM
Shhhhhhhhh....;)
Too late Joe! The High Rollers are a household name in FIRST and CD.;)

Nawaid Ladak
04-07-2008, 07:11 PM
Then what was 71 in 2002? Hmmm... actually i don't think there is any athlete as good as their robot that year. However 1114's bot is up there as one of the best all time.

71 in 2002 had to have been the best designed bot for the games strategy ever.
plopping down and taking all match to move across the field. And getting max score almost every time :O

i've seen video of this monster, but i started FIRST in 2003. if i HAD to put an athlete to 71... it might just be SHAQ

(71+1114 = 2008 World Champions ???, if you didn't get that, go back to my earlier post in this thread). they would be a steal in the second round...

royal_robotix
04-07-2008, 07:19 PM
one of my all-time favorites, Team 330, the Beachbots, kicked some major butt at LA and im betting on them to win. at the very least, being finalists.

i swear the beachbots will take over the world one day.

but a special good luck to team 39 and every other team competing!

BT987
04-07-2008, 07:29 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm:)

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 07:31 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm:)

well said:D

adman
04-07-2008, 07:33 PM
Remember that bad seeding on qualifications can make a team look
great or bad depending on how it goes.

Some teams drift to the top and run up 20 points of penalties per match.
It just means their alliance partners played their guts out.

At Midwest we were ranked 17th. We had some of the most difficult
seed matches we have ever seen. We were grateful that 1114 super
scouters recognized what we were actually doing insteading of the
ranking. We went on together to put that 146 score that stood for
quite a while.

Its a tough business winning. 1114 has so much on their shoulders about
what is expected of them we need to remember they are there to have
fun too, so are you!:)

Remember one last thing. All teams get better. There could be some sleeper
teams out there that found the missing bolt and loose wire or the grandeur of
Nationals brings the best out in them.

Raul
04-07-2008, 07:44 PM
71 in 2002 had to have been the best designed bot for the games strategy ever.
plopping down and taking all match to move across the field. And getting max score almost every time :O
Actually, I think 2001 version of 71 was even better. They could score more by themselves than most random 4 team alliances. In fact, any time they got a really low score for them it was because one of their partners blocked them from crossing the bridge.

Josh Fox
04-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Remember one last thing. All teams get better. There could be some sleeper
teams out there that found the missing bolt and loose wire or the grandeur of
Nationals brings the best out in them.

Anyone have any ideas on who those sleeper teams might be? All the teams I would have brought up have already been named but does anyone else have ideas?

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 07:56 PM
Anyone have any ideas on who those sleeper teams might be? All the teams I would have brought up have already been named but does anyone else have ideas?

mine would be...
1251, 179, 16(if thats possible), 2056, 968, 1717, 1625, 1086

and im sure i could think of more, but those were the ones on the top of my head:D

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 08:00 PM
mine would be...
1251, 179, 16(if thats possible), 2056, 968, 1717, 1625, 1086

and im sure i could think of more, but those were the ones on the top of my head:D

Add on 555 and 11 hehe:P j/k
If they fix their air problems (it runs out quickly) then I'd put up 375 as well. Their shooter is very similar to 103's if anyone saw it. Also 395, you can't deny that 2TrainRobotics is a strong robot.

Guy Davidson
04-07-2008, 08:17 PM
If any of the teams mentioned above are sleepers, then I highly disagree with your definition of a sleeper. Those are all well known teams, most with at least one regional championship, who all paly well. The true sleepers will only emerge after competition begins, because they either changed their strategy or improved their robot enough that their relative lack of reknown befor the competition will be gone by alliance selections.

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 08:24 PM
If any of the teams mentioned above are sleepers, then I highly disagree with your definition of a sleeper. Those are all well known teams, most with at least one regional championship, who all paly well. The true sleepers will only emerge after competition begins, because they either changed their strategy or improved their robot enough that their relative lack of reknown befor the competition will be gone by alliance selections.

I was thinking of a sleeper as an average scoring robot that may have won a regional or came close to it. Yes, they are well known team, but they are kind of like second tier teams in terms of the tier 1 teams like 1114. True sleepers are what I consider third tier (none of which i listed up there).

MasterChief 573
04-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Yeah, those teams are pretty well known by other teams, especially 1717!

Some sleepers in my mind: 107, 291, 326, 337, 343, 357, and 573. Just of the top of my head. Half have one regional competitions, but I think that they still go relatively unnoticed.

Cory
04-07-2008, 08:40 PM
Hrmmm could 987 be this years 987? I wonder.....

Too late Joe! The High Rollers are a household name in FIRST and CD.;)

one of my all-time favorites, Team 330, the Beachbots, kicked some major butt at LA and im betting on them to win. at the very least, being finalists.

i swear the beachbots will take over the world one day.

but a special good luck to team 39 and every other team competing!

Don't you guys know that the west coast is soft??

Heck, we all just beat up on all those creampuff teams out here. Not like those midwestern folks with their super elite teams.

987, 330, 39, 1717, 968, 254... nothing to see here. Those guys couldn't hold 1114's jock. No need to worry about them in Atlanta. They can't hang with the big boys ;)

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 08:45 PM
Don't you guys know that the west coast is soft??

Heck, we all just beat up on all those creampuff teams out here. Not like those midwestern folks with their super elite teams.

987, 330, 39, 1717, 968, 254... nothing to see here. Those guys couldn't hold 1114's jock. No need to worry about them in Atlanta. They can't hang with the big boys ;)

lol, i heard 254 can't even put up a decent score. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I just can't wait for divisions to be released. That's when true winner predictions begin.

Jack Murphy
04-07-2008, 09:08 PM
I've enjoyed the privilege of attending Florida, GTR, and GLR. You're all correct, awesome bots. I have to say, however, Watch for HOT. Cannot be considered a sleeper. Their Autonomous is already elegant and they've got way more tricks up their sleeves.

BT987
04-07-2008, 09:20 PM
Don't you guys know that the west coast is soft??

Heck, we all just beat up on all those creampuff teams out here. Not like those midwestern folks with their super elite teams.

987, 330, 39, 1717, 968, 254... nothing to see here. Those guys couldn't hold 1114's jock. No need to worry about them in Atlanta. They can't hang with the big boys ;)

ha I thought that was serious until I looked at who posted it was from the poofs!!!! Ha

T3_1565
04-07-2008, 09:23 PM
really I think it could be split back into the arm vs shooter arguement (please don't do it though) but there are really strong shooters I could see win (16 and 39 are my favourites) some strong arm bots (330, 121 (they averaged 5 hurdles I think, maybe 4), 217 ) and some strong hybrids (1114, 254) all in all, anyone of those could win, anyone of those against one another would prove to be a very fun match to watch.

That being said, I still think 1114 will win, and I would love for them to win, but I would also love 121 to win because we shared their roller claw idea (they helped us with that video) and I would also love 16 to win, because flip bots are my favourite type of bots of all time, that and their roller is crazy, and they shoot really well.


So I guess what I'm saying is 1114, 121, 16 FOR THE WIN :D:D:D


EDIT: John Norris I also hit 610! thought I would share and give you more glory

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 09:25 PM
If any of the teams mentioned above are sleepers, then I highly disagree with your definition of a sleeper. Those are all well known teams, most with at least one regional championship, who all paly well. The true sleepers will only emerge after competition begins, because they either changed their strategy or improved their robot enough that their relative lack of reknown befor the competition will be gone by alliance selections.

but, most of these that i listed, nobody stated in this thread... thats the only reason for the "above average" sleeper list:D

chaoticprout
04-07-2008, 09:37 PM
I'm gonna call it now for real. The X-Factor on Einstein will be a 3rd bot who can knock, has at least 3 line hybrid and doesn't get penalties.

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 09:40 PM
What do you guys consider being a top number of hurdles for an arm bot (since it was brought up) but please don't go into the arm vs. shooter thing. Please.lol

edit: arm or lifter- average number of hurdles. Above, someone said that 330 and like 217 have 4-5 average. So what do you think is the best for an arm bot?

MasterChief 573
04-07-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm gonna call it now for real. The X-Factor on Einstein will be a 3rd bot who can knock, has at least 3 line hybrid and doesn't get penalties.

I completely agree, but I would add that it needs to be able to get at least 30 points CONSISTENTLY!

T3_1565
04-07-2008, 09:46 PM
I'm gonna call it now for real. The X-Factor on Einstein will be a 3rd bot who can knock, has at least 3 line hybrid and doesn't get penalties.

HYBRID HYBRID HYBRID. because I have been to both waterloo and GTR and lost both times to 1114 in semis, I have come to the conclusion that hybrid is huge. I always see the score that the end of the match and thinking " they did not get double the hurdles we got, and then I find out hyrbid score was like 54 to 16... so it made more sense

I think the teams that have a really good coordinated hybrids can pull off wins before the match even begins lol

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 09:59 PM
What do you guys consider being a top number of hurdles for an arm bot (since it was brought up) but please don't go into the arm vs. shooter thing. Please.lol

edit: arm or lifter- average number of hurdles. Above, someone said that 330 and like 217 have 4-5 average. So what do you think is the best for an arm bot?

probably anywhere between 3 and 5 per match would be good for an arm.

Cory
04-07-2008, 10:24 PM
probably anywhere between 3 and 5 per match would be good for an arm.

5 per match would be good for anyone

cziggy343
04-07-2008, 10:32 PM
5 per match would be good for anyone

true that... maybe i was overambitious since we have an arm bot?:p

Guy Davidson
04-07-2008, 10:36 PM
Don't you guys know that the west coast is soft??

Heck, we all just beat up on all those creampuff teams out here. Not like those midwestern folks with their super elite teams.

987, 330, 39, 1717, 968, 254... nothing to see here. Those guys couldn't hold 1114's jock. No need to worry about them in Atlanta. They can't hang with the big boys ;)

Come on, Cory, no love for your old team? If you have to mention the cream puffs of the west coast, how can you forget about 100? 192 is pretty good too. I'd also throw in our Hawaiian friends from 368 and 359, as they're practically west coast. And if you're looking for some defense, 294 and 8 would be happy to show you that defense has spread beyond the northeast.

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 10:45 PM
5 per match would be good for anyone

Sweet, so we're still in the running. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

bigbeezy
04-07-2008, 10:55 PM
I believe that the winners this year will not be who everyone is expecting to win. For instance last year the "weakest" division was Newton and thats the division that ended up winning the whole thing. It usually ends up that the teams everyone expects to win, dont. Whether it's mechanical/electrical problems or just a shear better alliance knocks them out. Stuff happends...

=Martin=Taylor=
04-07-2008, 11:13 PM
I believe that the winners this year will not be who everyone is expecting to win. For instance last year the "weakest" division was Newton and thats the division that ended up winning the whole thing. It usually ends up that the teams everyone expects to win, dont. Whether it's mechanical/electrical problems or just a shear better alliance knocks them out. Stuff happends...

And thats exactly why 503 and 2024 are going to join together and beat 1114 and 217!!! :D Hey, its happened before...

lol, i heard 254 can't even put up a decent score. :rolleyes:

Maybe at SVR. But not HI, I'd call 148 pts. a pretty decent score... :cool:

jayjaywalker3
04-07-2008, 11:45 PM
That being said, the prediction I will make is this: the winning alliance will be composed of 3 teams fully capable of hurdling. It will contain a team well known for strategic excellence
What teams are well known for strategic excellence?

This would be my hope for the winner of the 2008 FRC Championship.
-If the Divisions are set up Sepentine (based on The Blue Alliance setup): Archimedes will take it with 1114, 2056, 341
-If the Divisions are set up Normal (based on The Blue Alliance setup):
Curie will take it with 1114, 233, ????
What does this mean?

Whatever alliance that has 2 teams in the top 20 of the OPR standings and doesn't choke on Einstein will win.
What is OPR?


In all seriousness, I just can't wait for divisions to be released. That's when true winner predictions begin.
What is a good score?

Akash Rastogi
04-07-2008, 11:51 PM
What teams are well known for strategic excellence?


Teams that have come out strong when they were considered underdogs are in this category. Any low seeds who were able to take over a top alliance with a good strategy. You would have had to scout them out to know who is the best at strategy though.

Prime example from my experience- 1418, 2016, and 11 in Chesapeake. 8th alliance that knocked out each of the other alliances in 2 rounds straight. We worked hard on strategy and it showed. Same goes for us in NJ...103 was just too strong though.

waialua359
04-08-2008, 01:04 AM
Talking about a great 1-2 punch hurdling combo is old news now. Until we see the divisions setup on Wed, this discussion on possible alliances will change once more.
Id like to hear possible 2nd round 3rd teammate alliances.
If its assumed that the 1-2 punch will take care of the hurdling, who are realistic possible 3rd partner candidates.
I for one think we definitely fit in this category. Heck, when we were with pink and RAWC, it was the first time in 3 years that we were the last option team to carry the offensive load.
AND I loved it!!!!!! 138 points is not bad!!!
As stated earlier, if the only requirement is 3 line crossings during hybrid, being able to knock balls down and placing, I've got no problem with that!
Personally, I think MANY teams at CMP will be able to do this. I expect to see alliances to be able to ALL do 3 lines or more AND knock at least 1 ball down, depending on what the opposing alliance does (blocking) during the auto mode. Furthermore, if your alliance cant do that, you will find yourself quite a ways behind when the match starts. That spells bad news.
As a scouter, I want my team looking at great and consistent hybrid bots during hybrid/auto, consistent smart driving, and being able to play some smart defense with knocking/placing balls consistently.

Guy Davidson
04-08-2008, 01:23 AM
Glenn, I agree, with the exception of ball placing. I really don't think placing is that important at the end of the game. I'd much rather have my drivers focusing on smart driving, playing D, and knocking balls.

jayjaywalker3
04-08-2008, 01:27 AM
I expect to see alliances to be able to ALL do 3 lines or more AND knock at least 1 ball down, depending on what the opposing alliance does (blocking) during the auto mode.
I thought this was illegal.

waialua359
04-08-2008, 01:47 AM
I'm glad you brought it up!
Blocking "may" not be illegal. I for one thought it was, even after the heated CD discussions and updates.
However, during week 3 regionals, especially the one we attended, blocking was done and WE were called for 30 points in penalties for hitting the blocking robot, during hybrid mode.
Prior to the Hawaii regional matches, I made it a point to ask the head ref on how he would call it on a situation where the opposing team blocks. He said he wouldn't call a penalty on either side.
It really was fine with us as we knew prior to the matches and as long as it was consistent throughout the weekend.
Not sure what the GDC would say, however, I would definitely ask the head ref on Thursday at CMP. It may differ from division to division.

waialua359
04-08-2008, 01:54 AM
Glenn, I agree, with the except on of ball placing. I really don't think placing is that important at the end of the game. I'd much rather have my drivers focusing on smart driving, playing D, and knocking balls.
I think its definitely debate-able. We definitely needed to place both balls all weekend in order to win our seeding matches and get through eliminations to the finals. Placing both balls were the key in winning our last pivotal match during seeding rounds which both 2024 and us needed against the 846 and 1572 teams where all of us were in the top 8 prior to playing our last match. 2024 and us placed both balls in the last 5 seconds to win that match.
In addition, during the elimination matches, we and 368 went up against the powerhouse 25 and 968 team. We won ultimately because we placed the balls up at the end of the matches. There alliance never placed balls. With a point differential of 24 points, you will see that we won by a score much less than that, thus its importance.

Guy Davidson
04-08-2008, 02:04 AM
I think its definitely debate-able. We definitely needed to place both balls all weekend in order to win our seeding matches and get through eliminations to the finals. Placing both balls were the key in winning our last pivotal match during seeding rounds which both 2024 and us needed against the 846 and 1572 teams where all of us were in the top 8 prior to playing our last match. 2024 and us placed both balls in the last 5 seconds to win that match.
In addition, during the elimination matches, we and 368 went up against the powerhouse 25 and 968 team. We won ultimately because we placed the balls up at the end of the matches. There alliance never placed balls. With a point differential of 24 points, you will see that we won by a score much less than that, thus its importance.

I see your point. However, from the point of view of simplicity and being able to focus on task, I'd rather have my drivers focus on one thing or another. In the eliminations, I believe most alliances will be structured with two ball handlers, aka hurdlers, and a third defensive and ball-knocking bot. I think that with the hecticness at the end of most matches, I'd rather my defensive bot focuses on preventing the other alliance from placing, or knocking over a placed ball (both of which, if done right, as just as good as a place for the same alliance) while the two ball handlers try to place the ball, if they can, or make a last-second hurdle.

In both cases you presented, your ball handlers made the last-second place. I bet it would have been much harder to pull off a double-place in the last five seconds (as I've also seen 2024 and 192 pull of during the SVR eliminations) of one of the placers was not one of the default ball handlers, and you would have needed to coordinate transferring / changing ball handling.

Perhaps a friendly wager of some sorts? If we agree that most eliminations alliances will have two major ball handlers, then I believe that very few elimination matches will be decided by a ball placed by the third (non-handling) alliance members. What say you?

dtengineering
04-08-2008, 02:09 AM
What does this mean?

Atlanta is not just one big regional, but rather four seperate fields that each act as an individual regional. At the end of the tournament the champions from each field compete for the overall championship. If you are assigned a field different from another team, it is impossible for you to ally with them.


What is OPR?

Offensive Power Ranking (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=66388) a statistical way to indicate how many points, on average, teams contribute to an alliance. Like many statistics it is not perfect, but it is probably the best single indicator of how a team contributes to the score.


What is a good score?

I believe that in Toronto 1114 was not in a single match where their alliance scored less than 98 points. At many regionals a good score would be over 70. In Atlanta I expect the bar would be raised so that a "good score" would be over 100. Technically, of course, a "good enough" score is one more point than your opponents.

Now... my personal opinion... in a much, much earlier pre-season thread discussing the game I suggested that the nature of the game would be such that it would be very difficult for a team to design a robot that would completely dominate the competition and that an alliance of mid-strength robots could take down any alliance with just one strong robot.

My apologies to the teams whom I so greatly underestimated. There are several teams with robots that completely dominate. I look forward to seeing many of them in action on Einstein.

But there is one robot that seems to stand out in sheer, absolute, utter dominance... and that is 1114. Being the top robot doesn't guarantee a championship, and there are many teams that can give them a run for their money... and depending on how the alliances form may ultimately prove my pre-season predictions correct... but if I had to pick one robot and one team that I think will win... Simbotics is it.

I have to admit some personal bias in this choice, because we've played against them a few times now (not this year, thankfully!) and know them to be a top notch team of really good people... in fact I wouldn't be suprised to find them in the running for Championship Chairman's as well as the competition banner. Not to say the other top notch teams and robots aren't deserving, but I think 1114 has been waiting a year or two too long for a championship... this will be their year!

I hope.

Jason

waialua359
04-08-2008, 02:17 AM
**response to Guy**
I actually like your reasoning better!:D
I will throw something else in the mix. Team 25 and 968 knew that was our strategy as we knew both of them dont place balls, unless by chance. When you get a chance to see the vids later, you will see them also try and knock our balls down once placed. Well,....... they were unsuccessful as we parked our bots right in front of it, pushing backwards at times. Had they had us as a third teammate, we would have placed the ball....hehe...:D (nah, highly unlikely)
I think the challenge will be for the 3rd bot in being able to knock balls down, as opposing teams will be doing a lot of "parking" as a strategy in the heated last seconds of a close match.
I think we both agree that the 3rd bot is more important than what has been said here. AND that's why your bot should easily make the elimination matches at CMP. Depending on how refs let matches play out, I'd hate to go up against 2024 also.

waialua359
04-08-2008, 02:23 AM
Atlanta is not just one big regional, but rather four seperate fields that each act as an individual regional. At the end of the tournament the champions from each field compete for the overall championship. If you are assigned a field different from another team, it is impossible for you to ally with them.




Offensive Power Ranking (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=66388) a statistical way to indicate how many points, on average, teams contribute to an alliance. Like many statistics it is not perfect, but it is probably the best single indicator of how a team contributes to the score.




I believe that in Toronto 1114 was not in a single match where their alliance scored less than 98 points. At many regionals a good score would be over 70. In Atlanta I expect the bar would be raised so that a "good score" would be over 100. Technically, of course, a "good enough" score is one more point than your opponents.

Now... my personal opinion... in a much, much earlier pre-season thread discussing the game I suggested that the nature of the game would be such that it would be very difficult for a team to design a robot that would completely dominate the competition and that an alliance of mid-strength robots could take down any alliance with just one strong robot.

My apologies to the teams whom I so greatly underestimated. There are several teams with robots that completely dominate. I look forward to seeing many of them in action on Einstein.

But there is one robot that seems to stand out in sheer, absolute, utter dominance... and that is 1114. Being the top robot doesn't guarantee a championship, and there are many teams that can give them a run for their money... and depending on how the alliances form may ultimately prove my pre-season predictions correct... but if I had to pick one robot and one team that I think will win... Simbotics is it.

I have to admit some personal bias in this choice, because we've played against them a few times now (not this year, thankfully!) and know them to be a top notch team of really good people... in fact I wouldn't be suprised to find them in the running for Championship Chairman's as well as the competition banner. Not to say the other top notch teams and robots aren't deserving, but I think 1114 has been waiting a year or two too long for a championship... this will be their year!

I hope.

Jason

I think its an understatement to say that the Cheesy Poofs have been long due since their inception year, 1999! :p
By the way, congrats on the WFA.

jayjaywalker3
04-08-2008, 06:01 AM
Atlanta is not just one big regional, but rather four seperate fields that each act as an individual regional. At the end of the tournament the champions from each field compete for the overall championship. If you are assigned a field different from another team, it is impossible for you to ally with them.


I believe that in Toronto 1114 was not in a single match where their alliance scored less than 98 points. At many regionals a good score would be over 70. In Atlanta I expect the bar would be raised so that a "good score" would be over 100. Technically, of course, a "good enough" score is one more point than your opponents.

Thank you for answering my questions. For my first question i meant what is the difference between "Serpentine" and normal division setup.

My third question was supposed to be when do division assignments come out and I don't know how it came out so wrong.

GaryVoshol
04-08-2008, 06:34 AM
really So I guess what I'm saying is 1114, 121, 16 FOR THE WIN Wow, that's a really deep division if one of those 3 are around for a last pick.

Thank you for answering my questions. For my first question i meant what is the difference between "Serpentine" and normal division setup.

My third question was supposed to be when do division assignments come out and I don't know how it came out so wrong.Normal and Serpentine are two ways FIRST has used in the past to divvy the teams up into the divisions. The teams are listed numerically, and then assigned to the divisions. Normal goes ABCD, ABCD, ABCD ... Serpentine is ABCD, DCBA, ABCD, DCBA, etc. Serpentine was set up when it was pointed out that two teams with consecutive numbers, for example 66 and 67, would never be able to be assigned to the same division with a normal ABCD ABCD scheme.

As for when the divisions are announced, based on last year it would likely be Wednesday (tomorrow).

Travis Hoffman
04-08-2008, 07:41 AM
However, I would definitely ask the head ref on Thursday at CMP. It may differ from division to division.

I would seriously, SERIOUSLY hope not. Oy.

ttldomination
04-08-2008, 08:13 AM
I think that 1114 will dominate, but they may not. Teams have played the keeping the ball away from other teams trick. If your alliance has one lapping robot, dedicated to keep the ball away from 1114, then that may stop them. After they realized that they can't pick up the ball, they'll either move on to another ball or try and do a lap and hope to pick it up the next time.

But it's mainly 1114's hybrid which dominates. It would take an alliance with another strong autonomous to beat them.

After i look at the blue alliance's possible divisions, it looks like it'll either be the Curie Division or the Galileo Division which will take it. 217 is really strong and if they are in the same division as 1114...it's over.

Bongle
04-08-2008, 08:21 AM
I think the problem with predicting is that there are so many teams with decent chances of winning. If you could somehow query out the probabilities of victory from the universe, it might look like:

1114: 15%
217: 8%
16: 6%
... bunch more well-known teams ...
... 300 teams with < 1%

So even the team with the highest probability of winning it has a 85% chance of NOT winning it, which is why they are the best choice, but still probably won't.

T3_1565
04-08-2008, 08:43 AM
Wow, that's a really deep division if one of those 3 are around for a last pick.


True it would be, but I seem to be the only who mentioned 121, and only the second one mentioning 16 :cool:

That, and it's only who I would like to win, not nessacarily the ones who will win! (but I hope they do, or if they are in seperate divisions, I hope they win there divisions and play eachother, 16 vs 1114 again, would be reeally sweet to see, 16 was very close to matching 1114's hurdles in the MidWest)

Racer26
04-08-2008, 09:17 AM
My prediction states that if 1114 and (2056 or 217) end up on the same division, its more or less game over for everyone else. the 1114/2056/x combination at Waterloo/GTR has proved unstoppable for 2 years running.

EDIT: Also, I think 2056 is the only team in history to go 4 for 4 at regionals. (As in winning the first 4 regionals they ever competed in)

Joe Ross
04-08-2008, 09:30 AM
My prediction states that if 1114 and (2056 or 217) end up on the same division, its more or less game over for everyone else. the 1114/2056/x combination at Waterloo/GTR has proved unstoppable for 2 years running.

EDIT: Also, I think 2056 is the only team in history to go 4 for 4 at regionals. (As in winning the first 4 regionals they ever competed in)

254 went 5 for their first 5, winning 1 in 1999, 2 in 2000, and 2 in 2001, before losing at the buckeye regional in 2002. They also won the Silicon Valley Regional 8 years in a row (1999-2006).

Racer26
04-08-2008, 09:34 AM
I stand corrected then. Though I won't be surprised if 2056 surpasses 254's impressive record. Winning 5 out of their first 6 events (only event they've competed in that they didnt win was 2007 Championship) is VERY impressive. Though its probably been somewhat aided by the fact that every single time, they've been paired with 1114.

(The events i'm referring to are 2007 Waterloo, 2007 GTR, 2007 IRI, 2007 CMP, 2008 Waterloo, 2008 GTR.)

Elgin Clock
04-08-2008, 09:37 AM
116 posts before the divisions are even posted.

You people just like taking chances on bets you can't win don't you? :rolleyes:

I'm going to wait till the divisions are announced to even make a guess.. (If at all, since it's a waste of time to guess who will do good in Atlanta since all the best of the best are there, and luck has a lot to do with this more than any other event throughout the year).

T3_1565
04-08-2008, 10:34 AM
116 posts before the divisions are even posted.

You people just like taking chances on bets you can't win don't you? :rolleyes:

I'm going to wait till the divisions are announced to even make a guess.. (If at all, since it's a waste of time to guess who will do good in Atlanta since all the best of the best are there, and luck has a lot to do with this more than any other event throughout the year).

speaking of which.... when do they get annouced??

Rick TYler
04-08-2008, 10:36 AM
Come on, Cory, no love for your old team? If you have to mention the cream puffs of the west coast, how can you forget about 100? 192 is pretty good too. I'd also throw in our Hawaiian friends from 368 and 359, as they're practically west coast.

Don't forget those pathetic slackers, 1983 and 2046. What miserable, ineffective, robots they are.

Elgin Clock
04-08-2008, 10:40 AM
speaking of which.... when do they get annouced??

Sometime before next Thursday I would hope. ;)

Joe Ross
04-08-2008, 10:56 AM
speaking of which.... when do they get annouced??

In 2002 through 2004 the divisions were released the Tuesday 9 days before the beginning of the championship. That ended up ranging anywhere from before the last regional ended (2003) to 10 days after the last regional ended (2002).

In 2005, the divisions were released on a Monday, 10 days before the beginning of the championship (9 days after the end of the last regionals).

In 2006, the divisions were released on a Friday, 13 days before the beginning of the championship (13 days after the end of the last regionals).

In 2007, the divisions were released on a Wednesday, 8 days before the beginning of the championship (4 days after the end of the last regionals).

ttldomination
04-08-2008, 11:08 AM
i think we can expect sometime late this week...

Cory
04-08-2008, 12:29 PM
My prediction states that if 1114 and (2056 or 217) end up on the same division, its more or less game over for everyone else. the 1114/2056/x combination at Waterloo/GTR has proved unstoppable for 2 years running.

EDIT: Also, I think 2056 is the only team in history to go 4 for 4 at regionals. (As in winning the first 4 regionals they ever competed in)

Kinda like how 1114 and 330 ended up in the same division last year, and everyone thought it was over?

It's never over till it's over. Who thought anyone besides 330 and company had a snowball's chance in hell of taking down Pink and Beatty last year?

James Mullenax
04-08-2008, 12:30 PM
haha I was just looking through some of our videos... check this out...

http://www.team1629.com/team/node/59

If we only could do this consistantly it would be great lol

just thought id share with all...

waialua359
04-08-2008, 02:18 PM
I stand corrected then. Though I won't be surprised if 2056 surpasses 254's impressive record. Winning 5 out of their first 6 events (only event they've competed in that they didnt win was 2007 Championship) is VERY impressive. Though its probably been somewhat aided by the fact that every single time, they've been paired with 1114.

(The events i'm referring to are 2007 Waterloo, 2007 GTR, 2007 IRI, 2007 CMP, 2008 Waterloo, 2008 GTR.)

The key part in your statement is being with 1114.
The Cheesy Poofs havent always been with the more dominant partner. In fact, they WERE the dominant partner.
We would know as we were their teammates in 2001 and 2002 at SVR when we won gold.
Nobody's record as of this point is more impressive than the Poofs, IMO. Its not to say that 71, 111, 217,330 and others that started way back aren't just as good. But their track record stands out and speaks for itself, considering the no. of regionals they've been to. Furthermore, there are so many teams gunning for teams like them and 25. To continue to win regionals is outright impressive.
Cory made a good point that anyone at CMP can be beat. How the heck have they not won at CMP yet?
Its all about the alliances. No ONE robot wins. Its the strength of an alliance. On paper, alliances may look strong. However, the end match results dont always reflect that. No disrespect to any particular team. Just pointing out and reiterating the fact that history has shown that any good alliance can win.
We've had 2 regionals this year where an 8th seed won. 2007 CMP showed that any seed, including the 8th seed can win.
Why hasn't Tiger Woods won every single major since 1999 where he was clearly the best golfer in the world EVERY year since then?
That's because "shift" happens. :D :D

My favorite is still 1114................................


































with us as their 3rd alliance partner.:P

Akash Rastogi
04-08-2008, 02:30 PM
with us as their 3rd alliance partner.:P

Haha, I'm just hoping we get picked by someone who knows how to have fun. That's the most important part to me right now.

TD78
04-08-2008, 02:36 PM
Haha, I'm just hoping we get picked by someone who knows how to have fun. That's the most important part to me right now.

Right on! I want our alliance to start singing a little Journey during the elims to stay loose.

"Don't stop, believin'...." ;)

Guy Davidson
04-08-2008, 02:37 PM
My prediction states that if 1114 and (2056 or 217) end up on the same division, its more or less game over for everyone else. the 1114/2056/x combination at Waterloo/GTR has proved unstoppable for 2 years running.

While you're right that 1114/2056 have proven themselves to be quite a tandem at Waterloo and GTR this year, I'd like to remind you that we'll be competing in Atlanta, and not up north. With all due respect to the competition at Waterloo and GTR, the competition in Atlanta will be several notches higher. Would you take the 3rd, 4th, and 23rd best robots at Waterloo or GTR over the same combo in Atlanta? Would it even be close? I don't think it will. Many other regional winning alliances this year (67/503, 39/987, 254/100, 254/233, etc., etc., etc.) are very powerful and just as poised to strike.

I believe that Simbot SS is the best Overdrive robot out there right now, at least as far as I have seen. However, this is not a competition one robot can dominate. If you want a list of robots that I'd bet on putting high scores, look at the Offensive Power Rankings thread. If you want to talk about favorite to win their division, and maybe even the whole thing, talk to me Saturday at noon :)

**response to Guy**
I actually like your reasoning better!:D
I will throw something else in the mix. Team 25 and 968 knew that was our strategy as we knew both of them dont place balls, unless by chance. When you get a chance to see the vids later, you will see them also try and knock our balls down once placed. Well,....... they were unsuccessful as we parked our bots right in front of it, pushing backwards at times. Had they had us as a third teammate, we would have placed the ball....hehe...:D (nah, highly unlikely)
I think the challenge will be for the 3rd bot in being able to knock balls down, as opposing teams will be doing a lot of "parking" as a strategy in the heated last seconds of a close match.
I think we both agree that the 3rd bot is more important than what has been said here. AND that's why your bot should easily make the elimination matches at CMP. Depending on how refs let matches play out, I'd hate to go up against 2024 also.

Now I absolutely agree with you. It will come down to driver skill and strategy.

waialua359
04-08-2008, 02:38 PM
Right on! I want our alliance to start singing a little Journey during the elims to stay loose.

"Don't stop, believin'...." ;)

Based on your robot design that should have been copyright protected or paid royalties for with all of the similar designs, how about....."Wheels in the sky keep on turning."

James Mullenax
04-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Right on! I want our alliance to start singing a little Journey during the elims to stay loose.

"Don't stop, believin'...." ;)

In 2006 the year team 1629 won Chesapeake, Queen did very well for us lol

"Under Pressure", "Another One Bites the Dust" and the list goes on

dtengineering
04-08-2008, 03:24 PM
I think its an understatement to say that the Cheesy Poofs have been long due since their inception year, 1999! :p
By the way, congrats on the WFA.

Well, having had the pleasure of seeing both the Poofs and Simbotics in action the past few years, I'll grant you that they are both outstanding and deserving teams.

What is unfortunate, in a way, is that Einstein won't see the top 12 teams competing. Sure... there won't be any slackers on the field... but while it is possible to have the number one and number two robot from any division on an alliance, the chances of the number three robot being there are pretty close to zero.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if, after the divisional championships were completed, there was a mechanism to pick the very best possible alliance from each division... which would likely be different from the winning alliance... so that the top twelve teams (or as close to it as humanly possible) were competing for the top overall title.

It could be a vote by the teams in the division to pick the top three machines/teams. It could be a panel of the judges picks the top alliance, or it could be that the panel of judges advises a FIRST celebrity like Dean (representing Curie) or Woodie (reprsenting Newton, for instance) who makes the final call and then cheers for that division on Einstein... or even gets involved as a "coach" on the field.

Or maybe we just need a sponsor to come forward and put on a "pro-bowl" type of all star event after Championships on an invitation only basis. The top alliances could be arranged geographically, or by sponsor (GM vs. NASA... what a match!) Alliances could even be made up of four or five teams, and an alliance "General Manager" would determine who played in any given match... just to shake things up a bit.

Of course that would take the focus off the Chairman's as being the top award, and it is important to keep in mind that while winning is nice, and seeing the very best teams duke it out is fun... that isn't really the point of this whole crazy thing we call FIRST.

So while I'm looking forward to cheering for whoever wins (in person for the first time!) I'll stick to my prediction that 1114 will be one of the members of that alliance.

Jason

TD78
04-08-2008, 03:26 PM
Or maybe we just need a sponsor to come forward and put on a "pro-bowl" type of all star event after Championships on an invitation only basis.

There is something very similar to this right now. It's IRI! :) Nearly every qual match last year seemed to involve alliances you would typically see on Einstein. It was an awesome experience.

popnbrown
04-08-2008, 04:15 PM
I say 103 and 2344 get in there somewhere.

dtengineering
04-08-2008, 04:52 PM
There is something very similar to this right now. It's IRI! :) Nearly every qual match last year seemed to involve alliances you would typically see on Einstein. It was an awesome experience.

Hmm... I was, of course, aware of IRI but I hadn't looked at the team list (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/event.php?eventid=55&mode=teams) in detail before. I do recognize a lot of very competitive teams taking part in the competition and had not realized just how far some of those teams will travel for an off-season event.

Impressive.

Jason

JaneYoung
04-08-2008, 05:21 PM
Hmm... I was, of course, aware of IRI but I hadn't looked at the team list (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/event.php?eventid=55&mode=teams) in detail before. I do recognize a lot of very competitive teams taking part in the competition and had not realized just how far some of those teams will travel for an off-season event.

Impressive.

Jason

If it is an event sponsored by FIRST and becomes an event that is solely comprised of the 'top teams' of the FIRST competition season, then that is changing the face of FIRST pretty drastically. In recent seasons, including this one, change has been discussed in these fori, including having teams compete at their 'home' regional, if there is such a thing. Also, having teams submit their WFA and their Chairman's to said home regional. Talking about a FIRST tournament/competition for the elite teams and sponsored by FIRST sponsors is added change. As we continue to do the homework, creating new teams and including them in the program, and aggressively developing programs to help them acclimate, grow, succeed - are we pushing the elite to a top tier as well or is that just discussion?

What does not change in the scheme of things is the commitment of the mentors to the program and the participation of teenagers in all areas of the FIRST development and competition, whether they are members of new rookie teams, successful teams, or elite teams. When having these discussions, that should be kept at the forefront of the discussions as well as the equal amount of money paid to participate. I'm of the mind at this time, that the bigger the party, the better - may the best on that weekend, win - and may everyone have a blast and recognize that they have competed in the 2008 season.

BT987
04-08-2008, 06:20 PM
Kinda like how 1114 and 330 ended up in the same division last year, and everyone thought it was over?

It's never over till it's over. Who thought anyone besides 330 and company had a snowball's chance in hell of taking down Pink and Beatty last year?

well put:cool:

MasterChief 573
04-08-2008, 07:05 PM
Well it looks like we will only have to wait one more day until we can all start making some serious predictions. I say this because the team list is up to 341, and based on the pit map, only 344 teams can be entered. So yeah, WHOSE PUMPED ABOUT GETTING TO MAKE SOME REALISTIC PREDICTIONS!!!

cziggy343
04-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Well it looks like we will only have to wait one more day until we can all start making some serious predictions. I say this because the team list is up to 341, and based on the pit map, only 344 teams can be entered. So yeah, WHOSE PUMPED ABOUT GETTING TO MAKE SOME REALISTIC PREDICTIONS!!!

me:D i really want to start scouting too

Striker_27
04-08-2008, 07:15 PM
I think that Hybrid will play a major part during any of the matches in Atlanta. Team RUSH 27 is collecting used or unused IR Boards and we will recondition them for the use of other teams in Atlanta who may have broken their board. If you have an IR Board that you would like to donate please email me at socceraddict63@aol.com.

GaryVoshol
04-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Hmm... I was, of course, aware of IRI but I hadn't looked at the team list (http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv/event.php?eventid=55&mode=teams) in detail before. I do recognize a lot of very competitive teams taking part in the competition and had not realized just how far some of those teams will travel for an off-season event.

Impressive.

JasonJason,

I'm sure they'd welcome some Western Canadian teams at IRI.

Nawaid Ladak
04-08-2008, 11:13 PM
if the alliances were to close as they are right now, my predictions would be

Normal Order: Archimedes would take the gold with 1114, 27, and 71
Serpentine Order: Newton would take the gold with 254, 40 and 2166

now we wait until tomorrow...

cziggy343
04-08-2008, 11:17 PM
if the alliances were to close as they are right now, my predictions would be

Normal Order: Archimedes would take the gold with 1114, 27, and 71
Serpentine Order: Newton would take the gold with 254, 40 and 2166

now we wait until tomorrow...

both of those are the divisions we are in... whoop whoop!

Cory
04-08-2008, 11:18 PM
if the alliances were to close as they are right now, my predictions would be

Normal Order: Archimedes would take the gold with 1114, 27, and 71
Serpentine Order: Newton would take the gold with 254, 40 and 2166

now we wait until tomorrow...

There is no possible way 71 would ever be around that long.

EricH
04-08-2008, 11:34 PM
There is no possible way 71 would ever be around that long.
Even if they fielded a box on wheels or a refrigerator (look in the spotlights--there's one by Gary Dillard about this...), and they never field either unless that's the way to win.

Pick again.

Guy Davidson
04-08-2008, 11:34 PM
if the alliances were to close as they are right now, my predictions would be

Normal Order: Archimedes would take the gold with 1114, 27, and 71
Serpentine Order: Newton would take the gold with 254, 40 and 2166

now we wait until tomorrow...

Not only, as Cory pointed out, there is no way either of your first three teams would be around for the second pick (third alliance member), I also think you could form quite a few better alliances in the serpentine. 1114/217/x ? 233/1124/x? 39/1024/x? 254/330/x? 233/987/x?

All in all, this is just crazy talk. Even once divisions are out, I bet no one will correctly predict the winning alliance until people are posting predictions after alliance selections on Saturday.

BornaE
04-08-2008, 11:45 PM
Not only, as Cory pointed out, there is no way either of your first three teams would be around for the second pick (third alliance member), I also think you could form quite a few better alliances in the serpentine. 1114/217/x ? 233/1124/x? 39/1024/x? 254/330/x? 233/987/x?

All in all, this is just crazy talk. Even once divisions are out, I bet no one will correctly predict the winning alliance until people are posting predictions after alliance selections on Saturday.

shhhhhhhhhhhhh.......
Please don't paint a red circle on our backs. :eek:

Akash Rastogi
04-08-2008, 11:55 PM
Not only, as Cory pointed out, there is no way either of your first three teams would be around for the second pick (third alliance member), I also think you could form quite a few better alliances in the serpentine. 1114/217/x ? 233/1124/x? 39/1024/x? 254/330/x? 233/987/x?

All in all, this is just crazy talk. Even once divisions are out, I bet no one will correctly predict the winning alliance until people are posting predictions after alliance selections on Saturday.

x represents 2nd tier teams I assume. What would be your ideal third team? Not just robot qualities, but driver qualities and strategic qualities.

cziggy343
04-09-2008, 08:47 AM
shhhhhhhhhhhhh.......
Please don't paint a red circle on our backs. :eek:

i dont think you need the red circle painted on you... i think you did it yourself;)

65_Xero_Huskie
04-09-2008, 08:54 AM
Even if they fielded a box on wheels or a refrigerator (look in the spotlights--there's one by Gary Dillard about this...), and they never field either unless that's the way to win.

Pick again.

Def. Agree.
71 is on the top of peoples list even when they arnt at a regional.
I heard that some team at GLR wanted them as their number one pick. :O
Ha.