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AlexD744
01-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Because nothing on a robot can interfere with the camera's it seems that the pink team can't have a pink roccobot.:( I just thought this was interesting, and was kinda wondering if they realized. (Although knowing them they probably did).

flyingcrayons
01-23-2009, 06:31 PM
GASP!! :ahh:

that means that MOE can't be MOE anymore... shame... i love seeing their lime green robot...

Thanks for pointing that out...

jimbot
01-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Ohh no!!! This will be the first year FIRST has ever not had a pink robot!!:eek: (or am i wrong?)

Koko Ed
01-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Fortunately the world is full of many colors to choose from. I'm sure they're worrying about bigger things at the moment than that.

GaryVoshol
01-23-2009, 06:33 PM
Been there, done that: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71985

Cory
01-23-2009, 06:39 PM
Technically the rules don't say that they can't be pink, but rather that if their robot interferes with the vision system they will be asked to rectify the situation.

After looking up the rules, the only rule I see is <R02>-C Any devices or decorations specifically intended to jam or interfere with the remote sensing
capabilities (including vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infra-red proximity detectors, etc.) of another robot (i.e. changing ROBOT color to confuse opponent’s vision system).

Technically they'd never even be changing their color.

If I missed another pertinent section of the manual, someone please correct me.

AlexD744
01-23-2009, 06:53 PM
Well it (sadly:( ) shouldn't be allowed because it would disrupt the camera's. And the robots would do that.

p.s. pink's first robot was black.

meastman
01-23-2009, 07:11 PM
The crowd's going to be a little duller this year.

SarahAngell
01-23-2009, 07:13 PM
If the camera is programmed correctly, a pink robot should not have any effect unless the robot is patterned like the target.

AdamHeard
01-23-2009, 07:36 PM
I don't see why this is even an issue.

The robots are NEVER more than 60" tall.

The Targets are always at a certain height (over 60").

Shouldn't be difficult at all to avoid tracking robots.

Cooley744
01-23-2009, 08:28 PM
Alex, I'm pretty sure it will still be pink.

XXShadowXX
01-23-2009, 09:16 PM
The pink team shouldm't have to much trouble, because they are only pink, not pink AND green A good vision system should search for both not just one or the other... their interfreace should be low

AlexD744
01-23-2009, 10:01 PM
Lauren, why do you always see every post I put up?

Andy L
01-23-2009, 10:24 PM
The pink team shouldm't have to much trouble, because they are only pink, not pink AND green A good vision system should search for both not just one or the other... their interfreace should be low

This is implying all vision systems will be "good", if their pink color messes up just one robot they will most likely be asked to fix it before they're let on the field again.

This all being said, I think they're aware.

jamie_1930
01-23-2009, 10:28 PM
I haven't worked with the camera, but I'm pretty sure anyone utilizing the color differentiation should be able to differentiate between different shades of the color so if the pink was a flatter color rather than flourescent I think they'll be ok (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Although I think this is still going to mess with moes traditional neon green.

waialua359
01-23-2009, 10:40 PM
I'm pretty sure Pink is smart enough to make adjustments to still have their vibrant identity and yet, not be in any situations that affect vision sensors and targets.
Who knows, they'll probably post something soon once their robot is complete.

Sgraff_SRHS06
01-23-2009, 10:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Pink is smart enough to make adjustments to still have their vibrant identity and yet, not be in any situations that affect vision sensors and targets.
Who knows, they'll probably post something soon once their robot is complete.

That's for the birds! :P PINK will wait for Week 1 or 2 to reveal and MOE...eh...let's say the DC Webcast/Archive will bring us their true colors!

Protronie
01-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Lauren, why do you always see every post I put up?

Better watch out...she might be stalking you ;)

-p :cool:

Nuttyman54
01-23-2009, 11:07 PM
Pink has experimented with different shades of their signature color over the various years, and I'm sure they can find a shade which lets them maintain their identity but which is highly unlikely to cause camera interference.

thefro526
01-23-2009, 11:40 PM
I'm sure pink will find a way to be pink.

It's not really the pink that'll mess a good vision system up or at least not just pink. A good system should look for pink in relation to green or green in relation to pink for target tracking...

Jon Stratis
01-24-2009, 01:23 AM
I haven't worked with the camera, but I'm pretty sure anyone utilizing the color differentiation should be able to differentiate between different shades of the color so if the pink was a flatter color rather than flourescent I think they'll be ok (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Although I think this is still going to mess with moes traditional neon green.

Yes and no... detecting the vision target depends on specifying a range of acceptable colors, and depending on lighting conditions you'll detect various shades of pink. When we did our initial calibration, our light pink sweatshirts passed just fine, but one college mentor was wearing dark pink (darker than the target) and was detected, as was a chair in the room.

Plus, every pink or green blob your robot has to inspect increases the time you have to spend inspecting each image, slowing down your vision system with false positives.

I don't see why this is even an issue.

The robots are NEVER more than 60" tall.

The Targets are always at a certain height (over 60").

Shouldn't be difficult at all to avoid tracking robots.

In order to tell distance to target, you want the camera to be low, looking up towards the vision target (giving you an angle, from which you can compute distance easily). with a low camera and a high target, colored robots can easily get in the way.

Arefin Bari
01-24-2009, 02:30 AM
Pink will be pink and Swamp will be green. Here is what's going to happen...

On Thursday at Florida Regional, The Pink Team and Children of the Swamp with go head to head on the street outside the arena where they are required to track each other and use their telescoping arm/forks to beat the crap out of each other. "No contact outside bumper" rule doesn't exist for this portion. The show will go on for 15 minutes (Oh, there is a $10 entrance fee). I am sure there will be scratches all over those 2 robots and some of the paint will come off. That's where I come in with a can of black spray paint and spray it all over those two robots to make them look pretty. =)

gvarndell
01-24-2009, 07:43 AM
It will be interesting to see if this becomes a problem.
Even more interesting to see how it's resolved if it does.
As has been pointed out, a properly functioning bot will not have a problem identifying the right colors at the right height and in the right orientation and proximity with respect to each other.
Imagine someone's grandma has shown up wearing a lime green sweater and a terribly pink shawl.
Will grandma be asked to leave if she confuses a bot? ;-)

Daniel_LaFleur
01-24-2009, 09:29 AM
In order to tell distance to target, you want the camera to be low, looking up towards the vision target (giving you an angle, from which you can compute distance easily). with a low camera and a high target, colored robots can easily get in the way.


This is one way of telling distance with a single camera.

Another is: As a target moves away, it becomes smaller in your field of vision. Because we know the size of the target, you can tell the distance by how much of your field of vision the target takes.

phencer42
01-24-2009, 02:57 PM
I think that as long as a pink team member isn't on the shoulders of a green team member or visa-versa they should be fine. :D

Urban Hawk
01-25-2009, 04:44 PM
The only problem u will have will be rule <R19>

Any non-functional decorations included on the ROBOT must not affect the outcome of the MATCH, and must be in the spirit of “Gracious Professionalism.”

However as long as your robots decorations do not interfere with the match you should be fine. As for rule <R02>as long as you are not intending the decorations to jam or interfere with the other robots you will be fine.

Also another way you can help make sure your robot is not breaking the rule is by rather then painting solid pink across the robot, you can use optical blending to make it look pink. Because it isn't straight pink the robot shouldn't confuse it and yet the eye will still blend the colors to make it look pink to a person.

thefro526
01-25-2009, 04:49 PM
Pink will be pink and Swamp will be green. Here is what's going to happen...

On Thursday at Florida Regional, The Pink Team and Children of the Swamp with go head to head on the street outside the arena where they are required to track each other and use their telescoping arm/forks to beat the crap out of each other. "No contact outside bumper" rule doesn't exist for this portion. The show will go on for 15 minutes (Oh, there is a $10 entrance fee). I am sure there will be scratches all over those 2 robots and some of the paint will come off. That's where I come in with a can of black spray paint and spray it all over those two robots to make them look pretty. =)

I like how you think....

I really don't foresee a lot of problem though. To find the target, you have to look for Pink and Green so one robot's color shouldn't mess up vision targets too much.

IBdrummer
01-25-2009, 05:53 PM
Pink will be pink and Swamp will be green. Here is what's going to happen...

...I come in with a can of black spray paint and spray it all over those two robots to make them look pretty. =)

i dare you...

Arefin Bari
01-25-2009, 06:00 PM
i dare you...

Deal. =)

Kit Gerhart
01-27-2009, 01:17 PM
It seems to me that if the camera is being used to look at vision targets, there is no reason to have the lower edge of the camera's field of view pointed "down" from horizontal, and if the camera is not looking down, bumpers of the color we have used for years should not be a problem. The upper part of the robot could be a problem if we make it hot pink. I'd like to see a clarification of "how high is too high" on a robot to have the vision target colors and I've posted a Q and A question to try to get a clarification. We'll see if anything changes from the present Q and A response which pretty much says "don't use the vision target colors anywhere on your robot or your body." We may make two sets of bumpers, pink and black, and then use the black ones if required to do so.

Daniel885
01-27-2009, 04:39 PM
If you think that's bad, they won't even give the go-ahead for the Green Team put flashing LEDs that say "885" even on the lwoer part of the bot...

Alan Anderson
01-28-2009, 12:39 AM
If you think that's bad, they won't even give the go-ahead for the Green Team put flashing LEDs that say "885" even on the lwoer part of the bot...

The legality of those LEDs cannot be determined without inspecting them. It quite likely cannot be determined without seeing them in actual operation in a competition environment. Deciding whether or not they violate <R02> is the job of the Inspectors and the Referees, not the Game Design Committee.

The GDC is providing Q&A guidance on the interpretation and intent of the rules in the manual, and is helpfully answering questions about whether or not certain designs violate those rules. It will not, and should not be asked to, provide rulings on specific robot design implementations that might or might not violate rules depending on how they are used.

jsasaki
01-28-2009, 03:25 AM
i wonder why???? i thought it would be okay as long as it wasn't either fluorescent green or pink ???? or i could be wrong i really don't know but i would think as long as the other teams camera was set correctly it shouldn't matter what about just plain green or red or a moss color what would that do ?? i really should find out:D:confused:

Chief Pride
01-28-2009, 07:52 AM
I think everyone is missing a much bigger problem than the colors of the robots. I think shirts are a much bigger deal. If pink sits by other pink members (which they will) then there will be a large "rectangular" pink blob that the camera might be able to pick up. Now I am positive this wont happen but if MOE is in the stands directly above pink there is a big problem. I do agree with the person about the false positives and slowing down the computation, but the shirts in my opinion are a bigger problem.

IBdrummer
01-28-2009, 01:08 PM
I think everyone is missing a much bigger problem than the colors of the robots. I think shirts are a much bigger deal. If pink sits by other pink members (which they will) then there will be a large "rectangular" pink blob that the camera might be able to pick up. Now I am positive this wont happen but if MOE is in the stands directly above pink there is a big problem. I do agree with the person about the false positives and slowing down the computation, but the shirts in my opinion are a bigger problem.

I guess we'll have to arrange seating at our competitions :ahh:
but hopefully we'll be high enough up at each competition so the cameras won't even see the team sitting up in the stands

Kit Gerhart
01-28-2009, 01:51 PM
I think everyone is missing a much bigger problem than the colors of the robots. I think shirts are a much bigger deal. If pink sits by other pink members (which they will) then there will be a large "rectangular" pink blob that the camera might be able to pick up. Now I am positive this wont happen but if MOE is in the stands directly above pink there is a big problem. I do agree with the person about the false positives and slowing down the computation, but the shirts in my opinion are a bigger problem.
If we and MOE end up in the same division in Atlanta, we'll have to be sure to sit next to each other, rather than one above the other in the stands. The same applies with Swamp and a few other bright green teams.