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SpaceOsc
03-03-2009, 05:57 PM
http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles/Team%20Update%2016.pdf

thefro526
03-03-2009, 06:02 PM
Wow. That was kinda depressing. I was hoping they'd put out more info about the field and some of the issues that were resolved in week one.

Oh well.

bduddy
03-03-2009, 06:12 PM
So... basically it makes <G22> into a double penalty. Weren't there some other issues with it, though? One I remember is a question whether the removed super cell needed to be placed next to an empty cell...

thefro526
03-03-2009, 06:15 PM
So... basically it makes <G22> into a double penalty. Weren't there some other issues with it, though? One I remember is a question whether the removed super cell needed to be placed next to an empty cell...

I'm not sure of the rule but a Super Cell is only activated by the Empty Cell across from it. So it has to be a one for one transfer. It's just something that some HP's make a mistake of doing in the heat of a match.

*EDIT* Corrected, see later posts.

Chexposito
03-03-2009, 06:32 PM
kind of depressing after a first week of tech. mayhem and penalty issues with human players they didn't say more.

Cory
03-03-2009, 06:38 PM
I'm not sure of the rule but a Super Cell is only activated by the Empty Cell across from it. So it has to be a one for one transfer. It's just something that some HP's make a mistake of doing in the heat of a match.

This is not true. The rules say nothing about it, and the GDC confirmed it was never a rule via the Q&A

IndySam
03-03-2009, 06:40 PM
Guys be patient. The members of the GDC were working at competitions this weekend so you shouldn't expect much from this update.

Be sure that the rules that were improperly called this weekend will be addressed with this weekends referees.

thefro526
03-03-2009, 06:50 PM
This is not true. The rules say nothing about it, and the GDC confirmed it was never a rule via the Q&A

I had no idea. It was enforced at NJ as a rule.

Could it just a creative interpretation of the rules regarding Empty and Super Cells?

jgannon
03-03-2009, 06:59 PM
Could it just a creative interpretation of the rules regarding Empty and Super Cells?
It's certainly creative, but also definitely wrong. Here's a link to the Q&A Cory mentioned:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12207

bigbeezy
03-03-2009, 07:08 PM
I would say if your a HP and you are of of the ones who have access to SC's then ask the ref that is going to be watching you for the match. Then follow his/her rule cause they'll be the ones giving the penalty. Don't argue with them saying that another ref said something else, if you follow their way then you won't get penalized. That is what we've done every year about the crossing of the drivers line between Auton and Tele. And ask every match just to make sure, if this is a big deal to you which I still fail to see how it is difficult to place a EC next to the first SC that you would naturally pickup. I understand its not in the rules, but i haven't heard anyone complain of being penalized for placing an EC next to a SC. :rolleyes: Just my $0.02

EricH
03-03-2009, 07:18 PM
To: The GDC.
From: A concerned FIRSTer.

I can find no reason for the edit to <G23>. The manner of exchange, as described in <G22>, is simply that there must be a one-to-one. Your own Q&A confirms this. However, Update #16 implies that the way this was called at many of the Week 1 events, as well as the Suffield Shakedown before the end of the build season, is the correct one; that is, Super Cells must have an Empty Cell directly opposite them on the Cell Rack to be exchanged.

There is no definition of EXCHANGE in the Manual; it is therefore assumed to be a standard definition; that is, one-to-one, switch places. Your Q&A ruling gives another definition; that is, simply one-to-one. The manual gave the same interpretation as the Q&A does; the Update does not.

You are confusing us. Please, come out and say that Update #16 is retracted, or otherwise clarify the situation. The update does no good and much harm.

(signed)Confused FIRSTer

Laaba 80
03-03-2009, 07:39 PM
This update seems clear to me. They are now assigning a penalty if a super cell was entered into play without being exchanged. Was there no penalty for this before? I saw a few teams at Midwest get an EC throw it over the wall into a teams trailor, then grab a SC, thinking the EC they had earlier counted as an exchange.

EricH
03-03-2009, 07:49 PM
This update seems clear to me. They are now assigning a penalty if a super cell was entered into play without being exchanged. Was there no penalty for this before? I saw a few teams at Midwest get an EC throw it over the wall into a teams trailor, then grab a SC, thinking the EC they had earlier counted as an exchange.
That should have been a penalty (no EC on the rack).

Now that I see what you are saying, it's much clearer. My confusion was that there are 2 rules that could be affected. 1 is what you've pointed out. The other is the "placement" of the exchange, if you will. The Q&A got to that yesterday. (If only they'd gotten to it before Week 1... Oh, well, can't be perfect.)

bduddy
03-03-2009, 09:57 PM
I would say if your a HP and you are of of the ones who have access to SC's then ask the ref that is going to be watching you for the match. Then follow his/her rule cause they'll be the ones giving the penalty. Don't argue with them saying that another ref said something else, if you follow their way then you won't get penalized. That is what we've done every year about the crossing of the drivers line between Auton and Tele. And ask every match just to make sure, if this is a big deal to you which I still fail to see how it is difficult to place a EC next to the first SC that you would naturally pickup. I understand its not in the rules, but i haven't heard anyone complain of being penalized for placing an EC next to a SC. :rolleyes: Just my $0.02How about this-play by the official, GDC-determined rules and ensure that the referees do the same, by politely bringing it to their attention (with appropriate evidence) if they don't. It does everyone a disservice if the referees are enforcing their own version of the rules.

Elgin Clock
03-03-2009, 09:58 PM
This is not true. The rules say nothing about it, and the GDC confirmed it was never a rule via the Q&A

It's certainly creative, but also definitely wrong. Here's a link to the Q&A Cory mentioned:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12207

Yeahhh.... :o
<looks at user name of FIRST Forums Poster asking question>
That was me who asked that question.

I just had to clarify that before our first event (and I guess, cause some trouble along the way too - Didn't mean to do that, but I guess now that it's clarified, we shall proceed).
I'm just sorry for all the teams in week one who got whacked with a non-existent penalty. :eek:


Btw, I totally agree with the double penalty.
(The way I understood it before was as follows)
You could remove a Super Cell (without having an Empty Cell), throw it in a trailer, & get 15 points, but get a 10 point penalty.
Net gross = 5 points for you! - And that's not lawyering rules, that was just purely working the numbers.
No more though. :( Kinda sad actually, I was looking forward to taking advantage of that little loophole in the scoring to be honest if it ever came to it. :p

Taylor
03-04-2009, 09:58 AM
The double penalty was always there. All Update 16 did was take out the implied loophole of introducing a Super Cell into play the last 20 seconds without having exchanged an Empty Cell for it.