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MWB
09-11-2010, 05:19 PM
The 2011 FTC challenge looks pretty interesting to say the least, does anybody have any thoughts about it?

iblis432
09-11-2010, 05:31 PM
after watching i immediatly emailed our mentor and warned him the team would probably be commiting suicide this year. :D

I'm really excited but scared. Although it looks like just a harder version of the 2008 game

MWB
09-11-2010, 05:34 PM
Hmm it did remind me a little of the 2008 because of the way the goal has different scoring tiers. I think the tubes are going to make things a little bit more complicated, but somebody will find a way to deal with that.

iblis432
09-11-2010, 05:36 PM
actually I was thinking that the bucket we used in 08 would work for this the exact same way, only problem is we would only be able to get the points of dropping the batons onto the rough surface.

ttldomination
09-11-2010, 05:40 PM
This game has a lot going on. There are a billion and one ways to score, and I think that the team that best figures out how to optimize the ending bonuses will show their dominance.

As far as the challenge is concerned, it seems simple enough. You create a slotted intake that rotates. It can suck up tubes and score them easily as well. The harder parts are:

1. Balancing. You have to specifically balance on the bridges...which makes it much tougher than simply parking yourself up there. Gyro anyone?

2. Detecting the weighted tube. The weighted tube is a whopping number of points, but you can't tell where it is. Either your drivers are going to have to do a visual inspection of each tube before you score it, or there'll be a better way to figure out which one is weighted. I think this weighted ones will make all the difference.

I felt like last year's game immediately sung to me, and I really liked it. This year's game as a bit of an acquired taste, but I can't wait to see what people come up with.

MWB
09-11-2010, 05:52 PM
2. Detecting the weighted tube. The weighted tube is a whopping number of points, but you can't tell where it is. Either your drivers are going to have to do a visual inspection of each tube before you score it, or there'll be a better way to figure out which one is weighted. I think this weighted ones will make all the difference.

i was thinking of using a compass sensor to detect which one has a magnet in it

ttldomination
09-11-2010, 06:00 PM
i was thinking of using a compass sensor to detect which one has a magnet in it

That's a good idea, but how do you test it? Do you pop each ring in front of the sensor? I'm not sure how sensitive that sensor is...so...it might work.

MWB
09-11-2010, 06:07 PM
That's a good idea, but how do you test it? Do you pop each ring in front of the sensor? I'm not sure how sensitive that sensor is...so...it might work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brd8lRKrSBU 1:01 in the video is a little bit like my idea... well this whole video is like my idea

iblis432
09-11-2010, 06:13 PM
I was thinking compass sensor as well, have a motor sitting on top of your robot always pointing north, then if that thing suddenly swings around on you when you pick up a baton, then you have it. You would have to place the compass sensor very close to the batons though.

Chris is me
09-11-2010, 06:50 PM
I love how it's not a "one task wonder", but it seems really, really complex and very hard to follow. Batons are interesting game pieces and the large number of them and the goals are interesting, but I couldn't count the number of secondary scoring objectives on one hand, for autonomous alone.

blackiceskier
09-11-2010, 07:02 PM
I was reading through the manual at the local kick off and there is a rule that states that you can have no more than 5 battons at a time its a 5 point penelaty for each baton after your fifth so thats going to be a big game changer.

jamie_1930
09-11-2010, 07:48 PM
My only advice to teams now is "the answer is simple!". Don't think I know it, but with challenges like this remember that the best robots are the simplest and most reliable.

Good Luck Everyone!

Chris is me
09-11-2010, 08:04 PM
I was reading through the manual at the local kick off and there is a rule that states that you can have no more than 5 battons at a time its a 5 point penelaty for each baton after your fifth so thats going to be a big game changer.

That makes the game a lot less interesting in my opinion. I would have liked to see the "mass of batons" versus "magnetic / precision batons" tradeoff.

Have fun building wrist jointed robot arms, I guess.

alphadog0309
09-11-2010, 10:07 PM
alright so i have found an issue in the rule book and i wonder if this seems right to you guys....

on pg. 10, under game definitions (2.3) the definition of Possess / Possessing a Baton reads as follows:

"A robot is said to be Possessing a Baton if any part of the Baton is in
contact with the robot."

this implies that if the robot is driving over a baton, it will count as being possessed therefore pushing a team over the maximum of 5 possessed batons, causing a 5 point penalty PER BATON IT DRIVES OVER. This is because to me it seems as if a robot that is driving over a baton therefore is in contact with the baton. Any thoughts?

Andrew Schuetze
09-11-2010, 10:10 PM
I was thinking compass sensor as well, have a motor sitting on top of your robot always pointing north, then if that thing suddenly swings around on you when you pick up a baton, then you have it. You would have to place the compass sensor very close to the batons though.

Why not use a magnetic sensor (http://www.hitechnic.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=NMS1035)in your baton manipulator;)

Bertman
09-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Check out FRC 2001
I think this was the last time I saw this balancing act

Andrew Schuetze
09-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Check out FRC 2001
I think this was the last time I saw this balancing act

Not many FRC robots at that time had an automatic leveling routine which was likely the result of the BasicStamp based CPU and not having COTS items such as an accelerometer/tilt sensor.:ahh:
<<>>
Now you can make robots that know which way is up! The HiTechnic Accelerometer / Tilt (http://www.hitechnic.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=NAC1040)Sensor measures acceleration in three axes. It also measures tilt along each axis. <snip>This sensor will also tell you if your robot is level so you can build self-leveling robots and much more.
<<>>

iblis432
09-11-2010, 10:32 PM
Why not use a magnetic sensor (http://www.hitechnic.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=NMS1035)in your baton manipulator;)

I was unaware that one existed from HiTechnic, but that sounds much easier :D thanks.

And that rule may be something you want to bring up with FIRST, they're bound to revise that rule if they find it.

jamie_1930
09-12-2010, 12:27 AM
alright so i have found an issue in the rule book and i wonder if this seems right to you guys....

on pg. 10, under game definitions (2.3) the definition of Possess / Possessing a Baton reads as follows:

"A robot is said to be Possessing a Baton if any part of the Baton is in
contact with the robot."

this implies that if the robot is driving over a baton, it will count as being possessed therefore pushing a team over the maximum of 5 possessed batons, causing a 5 point penalty PER BATON IT DRIVES OVER. This is because to me it seems as if a robot that is driving over a baton therefore is in contact with the baton. Any thoughts?

Submit this question to the Q&A

Chris is me
09-12-2010, 12:47 AM
Keep in mind in FTC you're standing 6 inches from the robots. You could just drive the tubes over to where you're standing and look if you can't get the magnetic sensor to work as intended.

MWB
09-12-2010, 02:45 AM
Why not use a magnetic sensor (http://www.hitechnic.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=NMS1035)in your baton manipulator;)

hmmmm that may make things a little bit simpler...

Joachim
09-12-2010, 08:03 AM
Robots may not "lift, grasp or hold" the rolling goals (the only baton scoring locations with high points) except during the "end game." But I think teams will want to move them before then, as they are on the opposite side of the field from the dispensers. So get ready for Q&A stuff on what is and is not "holding" the goals.

Also, the "possession" definition (touching = possession) is worse than it looks, since the penalty is 5 points per baton over the limit, per occurrence. Just drive over 5 at once (or individually) while carrying 5 and you get -25. Also, according to <SG4>, robots may not possess a baton in possession of the opposing alliance without penalty (so don't drive over one that the opponent is driving over first).

A change from last year: Safety rule <S1> now adds "another robot" to the previous years' list of field equipment that, if damaged by your robot, is grounds for (discretionary) disqualification by the referees. So defensive strategies are getting riskier, especially if your competition includes lots of robots built last week.

PhilBot
09-12-2010, 10:00 AM
I personally LOVE this year's game, although I think it will drive us krazy predicting what opponents will do in autonomous.

A defense robot could make getting the doubler impossible, just by driving in front of the dispensor. (Note you HAVE to get it in auto mode).

Also, looking at the video, the center of the movable goal appears to light up if there is a mag-batton in it. This will help with end-game scoring.

Phil.

alphadog0309
09-12-2010, 10:07 AM
Submit this question to the Q&A

The q&a isnt up yet its still only for the Hot Shot! game.... i guess ill have to wait until they set that up.....

normalmutant
09-13-2010, 11:56 AM
The game will be a big challenge. We shouldn't complain about this. More rules can actually spur forth creativity in teams instead of inhibiting it. Our team can't wait to put together the field and start testing things out!

VashonRobotics
09-17-2010, 10:53 AM
alright so i have found an issue in the rule book and i wonder if this seems right to you guys....

on pg. 10, under game definitions (2.3) the definition of Possess / Possessing a Baton reads as follows:

"A robot is said to be Possessing a Baton if any part of the Baton is in
contact with the robot."

this implies that if the robot is driving over a baton, it will count as being possessed therefore pushing a team over the maximum of 5 possessed batons, causing a 5 point penalty PER BATON IT DRIVES OVER. This is because to me it seems as if a robot that is driving over a baton therefore is in contact with the baton. Any thoughts?
I seriously doubt that any reasonable call on this rule will include any batons you drive over as being in possession. However I think the game Q&A does need to clarify this rule better.

For instance I can imagine a team making a deflector (like what a locomotive has) on the front of a robot to push batons out of the way keeping the wheels (or whatever) clear. Would that contact be considered possession? Maybe they should rule that if the batons are on the floor you can contact any number of them. Sure some teams will then push them across the floor to a stationary goal, but since bots are allowed to remove them that wouldn't matter a whole bunch.

I cannot find the game Q&A, is it open yet and if so where can I find it?

JesseK
09-17-2010, 11:17 AM
Fun Fact: HiTechnic released the magnetic sensor the Monday following FTC kickoff. Reply from the Hitechnic guy on an inquiry about the stock:

This units are brand new and are in production right now. We should
hopefully start selling them within a week.

Regards,
Gus
HiTechnic Support

It's nice that they're only $23 too.

Another fun fact: Nothing in the rules says you can't launch the batons to the other side. I do not know why anyone would want to do that*, but it would definitely grab the audience's attention. This game will be boring to watch, but probably fun to play. As for design, I'll see how much sweat and tears the students put in before I say it's a good game.

*or do I????

JesseK
09-17-2010, 11:27 AM
A defense robot could make getting the doubler impossible, just by driving in front of the dispensor. (Note you HAVE to get it in auto mode).

This would have to be situational at best -- why waste autonomous just sitting there? I would expect to see it at CMP, or in a couple of regional finals. It just adds to the unpredictability of autonomous I suppose. Juxtapose that with the concept that, by practical implementation, autonomous sequences are supposed to be predictable and you have one confounding paradox :ahh:.

biojae
09-17-2010, 03:39 PM
This would have to be situational at best -- why waste autonomous just sitting there? I would expect to see it at CMP, or in a couple of regional finals. It just adds to the unpredictability of autonomous I suppose. Juxtapose that with the concept that, by practical implementation, autonomous sequences are supposed to be predictable and you have one confounding paradox :ahh:.

But by even getting over, you still get 10 points even if there is a middle goal blocking bot. So, it is not too good of a strategy for preventing scoring.

team F.T.C 4240
09-17-2010, 05:41 PM
unless you push your rolling goal in-front of it, then go where ever you want after that

biojae
09-17-2010, 08:27 PM
unless you push your rolling goal in-front of it, then go where ever you want after that

That doesn't change the fact that they still get the 10 points from being over on that side.

normalmutant
09-19-2010, 10:28 PM
This game will be boring to watch, but probably fun to play. As for design, I'll see how much sweat and tears the students put in before I say it's a good game.

The balancing should make it pretty exciting. Also the designs will look pretty different from each other unless people start stealing ideas. There are so many different ways to approach the game.

Chickenonastick
09-20-2010, 06:24 PM
The penalties section of the rulebook is somewhat vague. ::rtm:: ::rtm::

Rick TYler
09-20-2010, 07:06 PM
The kick-off video shows a robot with smoke pouring out of its battery pack (at about :55). :)

kstl99
09-20-2010, 10:29 PM
Is there a listing of competitions listed anywhere for FTC? It looks fun to watch.

BACONDUDE1902
09-21-2010, 11:08 AM
the first competition of this year challenge is on 11/6/2010 :D

NalaTI
09-30-2010, 10:14 PM
Actually, the Northern California qualifying rounds start with the "Screamage" on 10/31... (Assuming there are 12 teams able and willing to compete).

NalaTI
09-30-2010, 10:20 PM
I was unaware that one (edit-- a tiltmeter) existed from HiTechnic, but that sounds much easier :D thanks.

We looked at tiltmeters two years ago... keep in mind that any motion of the robot changes the "tilt" --- they are also called accelerometers for a reason!

jamie_1930
10-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Actually, the Northern California qualifying rounds start with the "Screamage" on 10/31... (Assuming there are 12 teams able and willing to compete).

Is there going to be any webcasts of these matches? I'd love to start seeing how everyone else is playing the game

JohnFogarty
10-02-2010, 12:38 AM
Anyone who competed in Face-Off should find a lot of the concepts to be similar. But completely different.

One thing I want to see for sure is good ways to get batons off the floor. Back in Face-Off at the World cup when I was on FTC 1102 M'Aiken Tech Magic, I remember 2818 being on of the only teams being able to pick pucks off the floor...at all!

biojae
10-02-2010, 01:28 AM
Tolerances are something to keep in mind at all times!
Especially when trying to traverse the mountain.

Joachim
10-04-2010, 10:44 AM
But by even getting over, you still get 10 points even if there is a middle goal blocking bot. So, it [blockng the middle goal] is not too good of a strategy for preventing scoring.

True, blocking the middle goal still allows scoring. But if your alliance partner can get the doubler baton and score, parking in front of the middle goal may be a good strategy during autonomous (and would be an autonomous program within the reach of almost every team).

One way to look at it is this: a perfect score in autonomous (assuming you score with all 5 pre-load and don't somehow get some batons from the opposing alliance) would be 502 points (2 x (47*3 + 25*2)) for the rolling goal baton scoring, plus 2*45 for batons dispensed, plus 2 x 15 for balancing). Assuming you don't dump out any batons during driver-controlled, you would get another 382 for the rolling goal baton scoring, for a match total of 884 points attributable to a perfect autonomous game.

But if the middle dispenser is blocked and impossible to get to in autonomous, you could get only 239 for an otherwise perfect autonomous game (33*3 + 25*2 for rolling goal baton scoring {assuming no magnet batons were in the middle dispenser}, plus 2*30 for batons dispensed, plus 2 x 15 for balancing). With an additional 191 added for rolling goal baton scoring in driver-controlled (assuming you get and score all the batons during driver-controlled that were blocked during autonomous), your match total would be 430 (attributable to autonomous plus the 14 more batons from driver controlled).

Thus, against the theoretical "perfect" opponent, blocking the middle dispenser during autonomous alone would cut the opponent score by at least 263 points in autonomous and by at least 454 for the game as a whole (more if a magnet baton or two were in the middle dispenser). Anything that prevents 454 points or more sounds like a good way of preventing at least some scoring.

Probably no opponent will be good enough to approach these scores, but the better your opponents, the more it looks like blocking the middle dispenser might be good strategy (as long as your alliance partner is good too).

JohnFogarty
10-06-2010, 09:30 PM
True, blocking the middle goal still allows scoring. But if your alliance partner can get the doubler baton and score, parking in front of the middle goal may be a good strategy during autonomous (and would be an autonomous program within the reach of almost every team).

One way to look at it is this: a perfect score in autonomous (assuming you score with all 5 pre-load and don't somehow get some batons from the opposing alliance) would be 502 points (2 x (47*3 + 25*2)) for the rolling goal baton scoring, plus 2*45 for batons dispensed, plus 2 x 15 for balancing). Assuming you don't dump out any batons during driver-controlled, you would get another 382 for the rolling goal baton scoring, for a match total of 884 points attributable to a perfect autonomous game.

But if the middle dispenser is blocked and impossible to get to in autonomous, you could get only 239 for an otherwise perfect autonomous game (33*3 + 25*2 for rolling goal baton scoring {assuming no magnet batons were in the middle dispenser}, plus 2*30 for batons dispensed, plus 2 x 15 for balancing). With an additional 191 added for rolling goal baton scoring in driver-controlled (assuming you get and score all the batons during driver-controlled that were blocked during autonomous), your match total would be 430 (attributable to autonomous plus the 14 more batons from driver controlled).

Thus, against the theoretical "perfect" opponent, blocking the middle dispenser during autonomous alone would cut the opponent score by at least 263 points in autonomous and by at least 454 for the game as a whole (more if a magnet baton or two were in the middle dispenser). Anything that prevents 454 points or more sounds like a good way of preventing at least some scoring.

Probably no opponent will be good enough to approach these scores, but the better your opponents, the more it looks like blocking the middle dispenser might be good strategy (as long as your alliance partner is good too).

I'd like to take an opportunity to say "never say never"
Last year with HotShot we saw some ridiculously high scores and made a few of them ourselves. It's possible you could end up with a situation like that. and for intents and purposes I think all teams should at least have a autonomous that could accomplish blocking the goal.

Now I'm not encouraging a boring defense autonomous mode either. YOU HAVE 40 SECONDS. Please use that time and don't just sit there.

NalaTI
10-06-2010, 11:40 PM
Now I'm not encouraging a boring defense autonomous mode either. YOU HAVE 40 SECONDS. Please use that time and don't just sit there.

Amen to that!

Take some time and build a program that will at least drive over the mountain! That gains you 10 points and (in reality) will probably block most other autonomous robots that want to come to your side to grab the doubler too...

NalaTI
10-06-2010, 11:43 PM
Is there going to be any webcasts of these matches? I'd love to start seeing how everyone else is playing the game

I doubt it... that particular qualifier is open to teams from anywhere though... so you're welcome to come to California and join in!

Andrew Remmers
10-07-2010, 09:39 AM
I know the FL State Level is broadcasted I think every year, But other than that most if not all competitions besides states are hosted by an FTC team so its up to them to webcast or not if they have the resources.

the man
11-17-2010, 04:26 PM
Has any one gotten any rulling on the possetion rule yet?

Andrew Remmers
11-17-2010, 11:33 PM
Which possession?

the man
11-18-2010, 10:33 AM
Which possession?
The one dicussed earlyer about possetion being defined as contact with a batton, including ones on the ground.

Joachim
11-18-2010, 10:46 AM
The one dicussed earlyer about possetion being defined as contact with a batton, including ones on the ground.

Just check out the official responses in the official forum here:

http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/

Especially this post in the official forum:

http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/showthread.php?9-Game-Definitions&p=88&viewfull=1#post88

As it says in the post, the game manual was updated with this new definition.

the man
11-18-2010, 03:40 PM
Thanks a million!

the man
11-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Hey is there any rule aginst using a 3-D printer to make covers on the ends of our motors to protect them?

JesseK
11-23-2010, 10:53 AM
Hey is there any rule aginst using a 3-D printer to make covers on the ends of our motors to protect them?

Typically your question would be answered in an "Allowed Parts" section. Since your covers are not simply non-functional decorations, and are not made from the allowed materials, the covers as you've described are illegal.

If you disagree, then post to the official FTC forum.

To give you an idea about "non-functional decorative materials": Last year teams were not allowed to mount their team numbers to cardboard for purposes of display since cardboard in that context was a "functional" material for displaying numbers (a "function") and cardboard was not an allowed material for building the robot.

PhilBot
11-23-2010, 11:31 AM
Hi

Already asked and answered...

Not Permitted. (Unfortunately)

However, if you came up with a cool design, you should post the STL file somewhere so other teams (like me) could use it off-season :)

the man
11-23-2010, 04:34 PM
Dang. Our "design" was just like a cup to protect the terminal.

the man
11-24-2010, 01:40 PM
How high is the lowest dispencer off the mat? I cant figure it out from the drawings provided.
And it would be nice to know the other hights as well.

team F.T.C 4240
11-24-2010, 03:59 PM
How high is the lowest dispencer off the mat? I cant figure it out from the drawings provided.
And it would be nice to know the other hights as well.

I would suggest reading the game rules, odds are that its in there.

dcribbs
11-24-2010, 04:47 PM
Question #6 of the official Q&A Forum answers your question, I cut and pasted it below, as well as the link.

http://ftcforum.usfirst.org/showthread.php?12-Playing-Field


The heights of the angle brackets supporting the bottom baton in the Dispenser are listed below. See the attached illustration.

High Dispenser - 9 1/8"
Middle Dispenser - 6 3/8"
Low Dispenser - 3 5/8"

When designing your robot, keep in mind that field tolerances may vary by as much as +/- 1.0" as specified in rule <G12>..

the man
11-24-2010, 05:29 PM
Thanks. Just what I was looking for.