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Madison
03-17-2011, 09:11 PM
[cdm-description=photo]36695[/cdm-description]

Andrew Bates
03-17-2011, 09:12 PM
Those seem to be about twice as big as the ones in Bayou. Glad to see FIRST is improving on consistency across regionals....

Vikesrock
03-17-2011, 09:13 PM
That top triangle looks like it could explode at any second.

BrendanB
03-17-2011, 09:16 PM
Wow, I wish FIRST would have some visual control in this!

Speaking of Seattle, any ideas if there is a webcast? I really want to see/cheer on team 3126 from Hollis, NH!

Austin2046
03-17-2011, 09:32 PM
Wow, I wish FIRST would have some visual control in this!

Speaking of Seattle, any ideas if there is a webcast? I really want to see/cheer on team 3126 from Hollis, NH!

there is a webcast it's at firstwa.org

Madison
03-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Wow, I wish FIRST would have some visual control in this!

Speaking of Seattle, any ideas if there is a webcast? I really want to see/cheer on team 3126 from Hollis, NH!

firstwa.org should have the webcast.

Francis-134
03-17-2011, 09:40 PM
FIRST does have some control, specifically the templates they send with every field. If the tubes are inflated to the template, they will at the very least be consistent.

At WPI, we inflated them until the tube touched both sides of the template, then stopped.

Vikesrock
03-17-2011, 09:45 PM
FIRST does have some control, specifically the templates they send with every field. If the tubes are inflated to the template, they will at the very least be consistent.

At WPI, we inflated them until the tube touched both sides of the template, then stopped.

The problem is that the instructions/method for using the template doesn't seem to be consistent across events. I have heard a number of reports from multiple regionals, both on CD and from other contacts of tubes being inflated outside the template and then jammed into the template to prove compliance.

BrendanB
03-17-2011, 10:08 PM
there is a webcast it's at firstwa.org

firstwa.org should have the webcast.

Thanks guys!

JordanC
03-17-2011, 11:39 PM
Yup this is pretty ridiculous, not really a big deal depending on design choices tho

sanddrag
03-18-2011, 12:41 AM
Was the tube size template ever specified in the rules? Gosh, when we were designing our mechanism, the corners of the triangle did not look gigantic like that, and the tube still seemed adequately inflated. Why the need to really fill it so much?

penguinfrk
03-18-2011, 02:46 AM
My friend from BC, an alumnus of Trobotics (is Jason here? :P) was talking about how the Cascade Regional webcast is far louder than the Olympic Regional webcast. In the pits, Cascade music definitely drowns out Olympic music.

About the tubes--
For our practices matches, we've had to make judgment calls during the queue for Olympic because of the discrepancies in tube sizes. We have a strand of latex tubing across our gripper to more easily account for different sized tubes, and we change the tension based on how inflated the tubes are from the queuing line.

GaryVoshol
03-18-2011, 05:37 AM
Was the tube size template ever specified in the rules? Gosh, when we were designing our mechanism, the corners of the triangle did not look gigantic like that, and the tube still seemed adequately inflated. Why the need to really fill it so much?

The device was not spelled out, but the spec was:
The body of each GAME PIECE has a tubular cross-section, nominally between 7 and 8 inches in diameter at their narrowest. The GAME PIECES are inflated to nominal size, not a specific pressure.As I recall, the triangles use the 7" guage, and the square and circle use the 8" guage. The way the triangle is made causes it to bulge up at the corners. The square does so as well, but not as much.

Jared Russell
03-18-2011, 07:10 AM
The device was not spelled out, but the spec was:
As I recall, the triangles use the 7" guage, and the square and circle use the 8" guage. The way the triangle is made causes it to bulge up at the corners. The square does so as well, but not as much.

These tubes are easily 20% larger than the tubes in Florida (but still smaller than the tubes I saw in NJ).

I have it on good authority (from just asking refs and FTAs) that the field manual is pretty sparse on details as to HOW to use the gauge (blow up UNTIL the tube fits vs. blow up and FORCE the tube to fit vs. blow it up all the way and hey, it still fits!).

With a compliant object like an inflated inner tube, I have no doubt that a triangle on the verge of bursting could still fit into a 7" gauge...

thefro526
03-18-2011, 07:28 AM
With a compliant object like an inflated inner tube, I have no doubt that a triangle on the verge of bursting could still fit into a 7" gauge...

Jared, weren't the FTA's in week one Jamming the tubes into the Gauge..?

What bothers me most about over inflated tubes is that they don't fit through the feeder slot in some cases. If the tube doesn't fit through the slot then don't you think someone would realize that it's too big....?

(Also, you know there is a problem when someone who has never been exposed to Logomotion (My Boss/Our Sponsor) can tell that the tube sizes vary a lot more than they should.)

pfreivald
03-18-2011, 07:37 AM
We experienced tremendous difficulties at FLR because the tubes were much more inflated than we were led to believe they would be, even with the gauges specified before week one.

Now that we finally have our claw working well with the super-inflated tubes, I wonder if we'll have to modify it again when next we play...

--------

The lesson I learn every year, and then seem to have to re-learn every year: never engineer too closely, because all FIRST specs are nominal, even if they aren't labeled nominal -- and if they are labeled nominal, they could be anything.

soccerchapo12
03-18-2011, 01:49 PM
Anyone getting the webcast yet?

BrendanB
03-18-2011, 04:25 PM
Anyone getting the webcast yet?

I finally got it working!

Hawiian Cadder
03-18-2011, 07:33 PM
we used a roller with spokes comprising of rubber bands to solve this problem, the roller has 2-3 inches of compliance while still gripping tubes well. the roller is about 6 inches in diameter and then some grip.

Rick TYler
03-18-2011, 09:43 PM
I finally got it working!

And I finally gave up. It never worked for me.

BrendanB
03-18-2011, 09:50 PM
And I finally gave up. It never worked for me.

Ouch. The audio had some issues and it was kind choppy but it was better than nothing. I know that you can watch previous matches which is really nice!

mwibbels
03-18-2011, 11:01 PM
Personally would appreciate it if FIRST would set an expectation that the tubes would have a mean of 7" for the body of the triangles and an mean of 8" for the body of the squares and circles.

I think that this could minimize the general tendency to inflate and compress with the C's- which generally renders the spec as it is currently being implemented fairly meaningless. In addition, I personally think this type of expectation would be more consistent with what was the more common reading of the tube size rules.

dtengineering
03-19-2011, 12:57 AM
My friend from BC, an alumnus of Trobotics (is Jason here? :P) was talking about how the Cascade Regional webcast is far louder than the Olympic Regional webcast. In the pits, Cascade music definitely drowns out Olympic music.


I could hardly miss a quick glance at CD during this great competition! I actually haven't had the chance to check out the webcasts, but you can bet that I think Cascade is louder than Olympic... but then again, I'm biased... I'm doing inspection and judging on Cascade!

I'm really looking forward to getting some time to check out the Olympic field tommorrow. Not often one gets to see two great regionals take place in one great venue!

I was also doing my little "happy dance" today when it was announced that Robert Steele, "the Skunkfather" was Cascade's WFFA recipient (not to mention a volunteer of the year!). A great recognition for a great guy, who heads up a great team.

Jason

PaW
03-19-2011, 01:10 AM
...

I was also doing my little "happy dance" today when it was announced that Robert Steele, "the Skunkfather" was Cascade's WFFA recipient (not to mention a volunteer of the year!). A great recognition for a great guy, who heads up a great team.

Jason

Agree. Hats off to Bob Steele (and the Skunks) for their never-ending help to all teams, big or small, new or old. Many deserving individuals in both Cascade and Olympic... tough choice for the judges!

Aviation HS: time for a bigger trophy case!

Congrats also to Donna Lew (FRC488) for recognition of her tireless efforts (Outstanding Volunteer of the Year shared award w/Bob Steele).

Mr V
03-19-2011, 01:43 AM
The Olympic tubes were similar, but the worst that I saw was a triangle on Cascade where it really had to be forced through the slot. I only caught 2 matches though as I was over there to see 1 of our minibots get successfully deployed by MRT 3216.

Navid Shafa
03-19-2011, 10:36 PM
Thanks go to all! I agree with all of you whom have said that our coach's WFFA was long overdue...

What an amazing weekend and we get to do it all again in three more days!

FlyingHedgeHog
03-22-2011, 04:20 PM
Ideally robots would be designed to handle almost any level of tube inflation without much difficulty. I know 1983, 488, 360, and other such teams who grabbed the inside of the tubes were fine. 1510's claw was modified a little bit, but we got it working by midday Friday and it could handle any tube.

Madison
03-22-2011, 04:28 PM
Ideally robots would be designed to handle almost any level of tube inflation without much difficulty. I know 1983, 488, 360, and other such teams who grabbed the inside of the tubes were fine. 1510's claw was modified a little bit, but we got it working by midday Friday and it could handle any tube.

Even our whisker had some trouble with the overinflated tubes. In our lab, tubes displayed a sort of "arch" along their length, leaving a gap between the tube and floor at the center of each edge of a triangle or square. The overinflated tubes do not have this gap and it made picking up from the floor challenging.

SamMullen
03-22-2011, 06:36 PM
My brother and a friend of ours inflated the first 60 or so tubes for the Olympic field and they said they pumped it up till it looked right and then they popped the u shaped stencil thing on the tube, making sure both sides were touched. They let off a little air if the tubes were compressed, but they also said they didn't have to do that. They said the way it was explained to them it was only illegal if it was too small to touch both sides, not if it was really large.

princessnatalie
03-22-2011, 07:32 PM
The Olympic tubes were similar, but the worst that I saw was a triangle on Cascade where it really had to be forced through the slot. I only caught 2 matches though as I was over there to see 1 of our minibots get successfully deployed by MRT 3216.

Yeah being the HP for my team during finals I can attest to that.
The triangles were literally shoved through the slot on my part, which was not what any one on my team wouldve expected. More specific specs wouldve been nice.

Bob Steele
03-22-2011, 08:31 PM
I filled the first set of tubes on Wednesday night for Cascade. Initially they just gave us the frame with no instructions. On Thursday morning the FTA talked to me regard the fact that the 7 and 8 inch widths were to be measured parallel to the flat of the tube. We had been measuring them normal to that flat. We went back that morning and redid every tube. (They all had to be pumped higher) They do seem quite large but we were just bringing them to a pressure that touched the inside of the wooden gauge.

I did notice that later on, when I was working with my team, the hardworking volunteer in charge of the tubes was filling them to a point that they had to be squeezed to get them out of the gauge. So they were larger than the 7 and 8" that we had already set. I did not feel it was proper for me to ask about that.. I felt that he must have been given instructions...I know they did look larger than the ones we had made up on Thursday night and Friday morning.

I believe the key is to blow them up the last little bit inside the gauge and to stop when the tube touches...

Even when that is done, most teams would be surprised how large they are...and how mis-shapen the triangle becomes when it is is blown up to 7" . I know our team was surprised so we adjusted to that and went on.

The field crew at Cascade was trying their very best to make everything as good as they could. I can attest to this as I helped a little bit on Wed night to construct the field. The care they took in getting the lines and the positions for everything was incredible.

I do think better instructions should have been forthcoming...

i would like to thank the Cascade field crew for a job well done!!