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jblay
01-10-2012, 05:18 PM
[G01] When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs.
Violation: Disabled for the Match and re-Inspection if an illegal Robot

Does this mean that robots must have the ball inside of them or they end up on the coopertition bridge by rule <G05>


[G05]Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.
Violation: Match will not start until the situation is corrected.

Or can robots put the balls on top of their bot or touching their bumper?

This maybe more of a clarification question for the Q&A forums but I'm hoping I missed something and someone in the CD community can clarify for me because the way this rule goes changes a lot.

GaryVoshol
01-10-2012, 05:20 PM
The way I interpret it, "contain" does not include a ball sitting on the ground touching the bumper. But I may be proven wrong.

nssheepster
01-10-2012, 07:01 PM
It means that you can have 2 basketballs, but if you or anyone else chooses not to, those balls will be placed on the coopertition bridge. It's an option.

Ninja_Bait
01-10-2012, 07:13 PM
It means that you can have 2 basketballs, but if you or anyone else chooses not to, those balls will be placed on the coopertition bridge. It's an option.

That part's pretty obvious. The question Blay, and the rest of our team, is asking, is, what entails "have"? Is it "contain" as in have inside the frame perimeter? Or, is it "used" as in touching the robot in any way (more along the lines of the broader definition for "active control")? Is it an either/or/both situation?

For an example: "Contain" may be like 2009 where the balls started inside your robot but never on the field, just touching the robot. "Used" may be like 2011 where the ubertubes just had to touch the robot bumpers, even though the robot could also hold a tube.

Because G01 uses the word "may", that implies that we don't have to "contain" the balls to count them as "used" (and therefore not destined for the coopertition bridge) as in G05.

DonRotolo
01-10-2012, 08:24 PM
I throw a soda can on the ground, and it ends up touching a trash pail. Does that trash pail contain that soda can?

No, of course not.

Now replace "soda can" with "ball" and "Trash pail" with "robot". Any different?

This is what the GDC means when they plead that you do not "lawyer" the rules.

Tristan Lall
01-10-2012, 09:04 PM
This is what the GDC means when they plead that you do not "lawyer" the rules.While that much is obvious, it's still not quite clear what "contain" means:
Ball in completely enclosed container.
Ball in partially enclosed container; ball does not stick out of enclosure or touch anything but the robot (and the atmosphere).
Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, but does not touch anything but the robot (and the atmosphere).
Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and touches the ground and/or another robot (and the robot and the atmosphere).
Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and outside of actual robot dimensions (either bumpers included/bumpers excluded).
Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and outside of maximum robot dimensions (either bumpers included/bumpers excluded).
Ball is pinched (so a portion of it is "contained" in the gripper).
Other variations on and combinations of the above that would be tedious to list.

nssheepster
01-11-2012, 10:11 AM
While I don't have the number, "contain" versus, "is touching" has already been covered in the rules. The intent is that you must be in some way attempting to control where the balls are. If they are just set on your robot, I don't think it will count. Ask the GDC.

rich2202
01-12-2012, 11:38 PM
I think "control" is the key. If the ball can be shot without moving the bot (or extending out to get the ball), then it is contained. One example is: Let's say you have catapult, and when the ball is seated, the ball overhangs the frame by 2". I think the ball is functionally contained by your bot.

Andrew Lawrence
01-12-2012, 11:41 PM
I think "control" is the key. If the ball can be shot without moving the bot (or extending out to get the ball), then it is contained. One example is: Let's say you have catapult, and when the ball is seated, the ball overhangs the frame by 2". I think the ball is functionally contained by your bot.

But it does't say the ball needs to be "controlled", like in other sections of the rules. It says contain, and that is open to interpretation. I'd leave the question open until the next 2 rule changes or so.

nssheepster
01-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Guys, if you are influencing where it goes with your 'bot, and your 'bot is preventing other 'bots from accessing those balls, you are, in some way, containing it.

mwmac
01-13-2012, 08:47 AM
Game animation shows bulldozer bot with 2 balls placed atop the robot but not actively controlled, at start of match. Recognizing that animation does not necessarily translate into the rules of the game, it does seem to indicate that box on wheels bots could have the balls at the start of the match in order to avoid having them placed on the coopertition bridge. just my .02...

Siri
01-13-2012, 08:49 AM
While I don't have the number, "contain" versus, "is touching" has already been covered in the rules. The intent is that you must be in some way attempting to control where the balls are. If they are just set on your robot, I don't think it will count. Ask the GDC.Are you thinking of "actively control" from <G22>? Because "contain" is only used twice in the rules:
<G01> When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs. ...
<G02> Alignment devices such as templates, tape measures, laser pointers, etc. that are not part of the Robot and fully contained within the starting volume may not be used to assist with positioning the Robot.
It's mentioned 3 times in administrative situation within The Arena, and that's all.

I think Tristan's hit it. "Contain" could reasonably be construed to mean "completely enclosed container", "partially enclosed container, entirely within the frame perimeter", "partially enclosed container, partially within the frame perimeter", "no container necessary, but entirely within the frame perimeter", "no container necessary, but fully supported by the robot", and number of other things. Are these balls (http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?title=File:DB5_shooter_ready_gate_closed _090217_csm.jpg) "contained" within our Lunacy robot? Is this trackball (http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1525&bih=662&tbm=isch&tbnid=t_nwu7JWAkX2UM:&imgrefurl=http://www.team624.org/team/robots/&docid=ohEvQ974zpecPM&imgurl=http://www.team624.org/images/2008.jpg&w=480&h=360&ei=bEMQT8PKI4Tw0gGu_MmkAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=386&vpy=154&dur=104&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=159&ty=99&sig=101812590592842378412&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=143&tbnw=204&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0)? What about this one (http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1525&bih=662&tbm=isch&tbnid=sQ_su3SOacdB_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.team1735.org/history2008.html&docid=D4NaJ1NABJsDfM&imgurl=http://www.team1735.org/images/2008/frc2008.jpg&w=640&h=427&ei=ukMQT73BJsb30gHO34WyAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1043&vpy=319&dur=1&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=118&ty=120&sig=101812590592842378412&page=2&tbnh=134&tbnw=191&start=22&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:22)?


Apologies to the teams I randomly Googled. Cool robots.

Ninja_Bait
01-13-2012, 08:49 AM
Hang on - the word "contain" is not really in question here, it's the word "used" in G05. Obviously "contain" is like holding a ball in your hopper. But is "used" limited to "containing" or is it all the actions in "active control"? That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; hopefully this clarifies that.

We will be asking the GDC this one.

nssheepster
01-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Are you thinking of "actively control" from <G22>?[/SIZE]

Yes, sorry. But honestly, I think they're very similar. How about we treat it as, say, choose to have them on, in, or near the robot? This puts contain aside. i think the field crew would just ask before they gave you the balls, so the question could, feasibly, end up a moot point.

LinuxArchitect
01-15-2012, 07:02 PM
Hang on - the word "contain" is not really in question here, it's the word "used" in G05. Obviously "contain" is like holding a ball in your hopper. But is "used" limited to "containing" or is it all the actions in "active control"? That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; hopefully this clarifies that.

We will be asking the GDC this one.

I've also asked the GDC.

I believe in G05, "not used" refers to balls that are unclaimed because the robot is MIA or DOA. I suppose a team could voluntarily not use a ball, but I'm not sure why.

I believe in G01, contain implies the ball is within the frame perimeter. But I think a ball could still be used by placing it on the ground touching the robot.
Presumably you would do so to let your alliance partner pick it up to score. So G01 permits you to preload your two balls, but does not require it.

GaryVoshol
01-15-2012, 07:59 PM
It's been answered:

Q. What is considered possession of the ball during the beginning of the Autonomous period? Do they have to be inside your robot or do they just have to be touching the bumpers? What can you do to make sure the balls do not get put on the coopertition bridge during Autonomous?
A. If a ball is not fully supported by the Robot, it will be considered unused and placed on the Coopertition Bridge.

Ninja_Bait
01-15-2012, 08:02 PM
Thanks. That will change our strategy a little bit.

Siri
01-15-2012, 08:10 PM
Yes, sorry. But honestly, I think they're very similar. How about we treat it as, say, choose to have them on, in, or near the robot? This puts contain aside. i think the field crew would just ask before they gave you the balls, so the question could, feasibly, end up a moot point.Unfortunately it's not up to our interpretation. This particular "fully supported" definition helps determine where within our ball manipulation system we can start, dictating our cycle time, code, and even exact shooter specifications (in an attempt to reduce cycle time).

I believe in G01, contain implies the ball is within the frame perimeter. But I think a ball could still be used by placing it on the ground touching the robot.
Presumably you would do so to let your alliance partner pick it up to score. So G01 permits you to preload your two balls, but does not require it.I suspect it'll be the "Double Ubertube" of this year. A non-scoring team puts 1-2 of their balls on the Bridge and lets a Bridge Tipper snag it (after unloading their own pre-loads) to score. This may well be easier than orchestrating a floor pickup, though also potentially more risky.

nssheepster
01-17-2012, 06:30 AM
You're probably right. We really need the GDC on this one.