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Unread 11-07-2005, 09:20 PM
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Question This year we need instant replay

Instant replay.

Last year we got serously fouled (ramed in the loading dock) and have video proof of it. This foul was never called and it cost us the match.

Obviously GLR '05 is long gone. The ultament outcome of '05 would have prolly stayed the same (Novi, I am proud to be in one of your neigboring towns!!!). The point is that it shouldnt have happened. We were rookies last year and at the time this really dissapointed us.

Just somthing to think about.

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:Edit: I recieved a request for the video. I'm not sending it, if i showed who did the foul it would devert attention from the forward-looking point i am trying to make :/edit:
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Last edited by Validius : 11-07-2005 at 09:31 PM.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 09:41 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

i agree to some extent with this notion, but it would need to be regulated

many teams video tape and the refs may have trouble understanding the whole picture from only one angle
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Unread 11-07-2005, 09:45 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

i disagree i do not like this idea that goes against gracious professionalism there is a system of checks and balances already in place that is why there is more than one ref plus this would slow up game play
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Unread 11-07-2005, 09:59 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

Why a camera crew? Why not just have a cieling cam or 2? I'm not talking about debating somthing small, i'm talking about getting ramed in the loading dock. The officials could easily take a look at the footage while the field is being set up.

Perhaps a system like in the NFL. If a team requests instant replay and no decisions are changed they loose 10 points. My dad's 1992 Hi8 cam caught this incidant, you dont need and kinda fancy hardware.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:08 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

there in lies a problem if you are already down points and are going to lose what is going to stop every single team from doing this when they are going to loose yet again this leads to game lag
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Validius
Why a camera crew? Why not just have a cieling cam or 2? I'm not talking about debating somthing small, i'm talking about getting ramed in the loading dock. The officials could easily take a look at the footage while the field is being set up.

Perhaps a system like in the NFL. If a team requests instant replay and no decisions are changed they loose 10 points. My dad's 1992 Hi8 cam caught this incidant, you dont need and kinda fancy hardware.
I think you've underestimated the amount of equipment you need for instant replay.

You need a sufficient number of cameras to capture all relevant angles of the playing field.

If those cameras are stationary, that's extra cash that has to be found. If they're the same ones that are currently being used, the operators need intensive training as to what they should be filming and when. In the NFL, do you ever see the cameramen filming some offensive lineman that got clocked by the defense and is lying on the ground seeing stars?

The answer is no. In FIRST, the camera men LOVE to film robots that have been flipped and are sitting there spinning their wheels in the air. This would not work.

You need to record the match, and have a station setup where a/the refs can watch it. More cash needed.

A lot of regionals can barely afford what they're putting out on the field already. This would be a large burden.

The refs get more calls right than they do wrong. Far more calls right than wrong. We need to just trust them and stand by their decisions, right or wrong.

A FAR better use of resources would be to make sure that every ref has intensive training, and understand the rulebook, as well as the in match applications of it perfectly.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:12 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

It seems that it comes down to a question of money as do many things in life and FIRST.

I cant help but to agree with Cory about the training.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:13 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
The refs get more calls right than they do wrong. Far more calls right than wrong.
So I guess by this logic if in one year the state of California jails 2000 guilty criminals and 200 innocent people than they are doing okay because they are getting it right way more than they are getting it wrong. Something is flawed there. Anyway, I do agree with you on your points. It wouldn't be easy or cheap to implement.

EDIT: What I was saying is "correct over half of the time" or "correct most of the time" isn't good enough. Let's strive for near 100% perfection rather than "more perfect than not."

You can compare it to dozens of things (things that you will probably say have no relation, but anyway). For example the brakes in your car. As long as they work most of the time, it is okay? Or the teacher/professor in your class, as long as he shows up most of the time, it is okay? Or car payments, as long as you pay them most of the time, you are A OK? Or when you go to the auto mechanics, as long as they are ripping you off only once in a while it is okay because they are honest most of the time? If a surgeon specializing in amputations cuts off the wrong leg, it's okay because he got it right on 50 other patients? If a tire on your car goes flat, it's okay because you have 3 more that didn't? I can go on and on.

Sure, there will be the occasional slip up in refereeing. But, let's all remember, "good enough isn't" There is always room for improvement.
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Last edited by sanddrag : 11-07-2005 at 10:38 PM.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 10:17 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
...Something is flawed there. ...
[Spock][raised eyebrow] Highly illogical! [/Spock][/raised eyebrow]

FIRST competitions have nothing to do with the criminal justice system. :^)
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Unread 11-07-2005, 11:20 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

We all know that FIRST doesn't like to be behind schedule, and that replaying matches, and watching videos has the potential to bring on more of that. So hypothetically, what about letting teams each make up to one video review request during the qualifying rounds (counting against all three* teams in the alliance, so all three must agree), and up to one per alliance in the eliminations (requested by the captain, and consuming the timeout). Then, teams are required to supply their own video to the referee within one minute of the match ending—if the cameraman they want to use is in the stands, he'd better fly; more likely, the camera is positioned in the cheering gallery. (If they can't supply a video of their own, or borrow one from a graciously professional camera operator, then too bad, no appeal. They bear the burden of proof.) They state their concern, and show the referees the video. The head referee then decides if there's enough evidence to warrant changing a call (or if the concern even has merit in the first place).

This would seem to limit it to a maximum of ≈28 possible requests for review during a large regional, and in practice, much less than that, since as a team uses its review, neither they, nor their current alliance partners in the qualifications can appeal any longer, irrespective of the gravity of the percieved error. I'd say that something like this is the only way to balance FIRST's concerns regarding the logistics, with the teams' natural desire for justice. It's hardly perfect, and it can still be unfair, but it seems like a practicable compromise, weeding out the egregious, obvious errors, while still keeping the flow of the event going.

Of course, is this even necessary? Maybe, and maybe not.

*Instead of three, substitute whatever the appropriate number is in 2006.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 11:25 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

This is high school robotics for fun and education. Let's try and keep it that way.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 11:46 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

One thing that has been mentioned in part is that the refs are volunteers. All other sports refs (including the pee wee baseball) are paid.

There isn't time to "extensively train" all the refs. They have jobs. If you start requiring training, your ref volunteer rate will fall. Then you'll have fewer refs per regional. Then people complain because there aren't enough refs.

What is funny is most of the time, the people who complain about the volunteers at regionals have never volunteered themselves.

Perhaps it just takes seeing FIRST from a new vantage point to see the true meaning. Is the competition of FIRST great and what drives some of the improvements? Absolutely. But is it everything? No.

Until the MLB brings in instant replay (which won't happen under Paul Tag.), don't expect it in FIRST (which won't happen ever).

P.S. I'm sure you can find more sob stories on these boards (maybe I even wrote some of them) about the refs if you look hard enough. Find comfort knowing you aren't the first and you won't be the last.
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Unread 11-07-2005, 11:48 PM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall
Then, teams are required to supply their own video to the referee within one minute of the match ending
It's my opinion that under no circumstances whatsoever should video produced by a team be used or even cosidered when making a decision.

Even if a ref stood there and watched the team taping, and everything was legit, this just should not happen. ever.

[edit] Plus, what if an alliance has nobody taping their robot when something questionable happens? Yes, a slim chance of happening, but totally unfair.

If you initiate an instant replay rule, it needs to be standardized across the board, ie: every single match needs to be taped from standardized view points, by a single entity. There's just no other way to make it fair, and this is clearly too large a monetary burden, as well as taking too much time, which precludes instant replay from ever happening in the first place
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Last edited by Cory : 11-07-2005 at 11:57 PM.
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Unread 11-08-2005, 12:07 AM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

No. FIRST should not adopt any sort of instant replay scheme. There are many reasons.

Let me count the ways to say no to this:
  1. FIRST refs are volunteers. If instant replay comes around, these volunteers will go away, as said above.
  2. FIRST events have enough delays in schedules as it is. More scrutiny over a call that may not be overturned is exactly not what this competition needs.
  3. Most perceived "bad calls" are simply mis-interpretation of the rules. A team person sees it one way while the ref sees it another. All refs call things slightly different. A videotape won't change someone's mind about how a rule is interpreted. I remember many times when people would disagree with a call I made and want to show me the videotape. Regardless of the fact that showing the tape is against FIRST rules, in each case I saw the action take place, at a closer view than the video. Once I explained why the call was made, the video evidence was moot.

Until FIRST starts putting referees on the payroll, don't expect instant replay.

For the people who complain about refereeing, I challenge them to step up and serve as a volunteer. I will be the head ref at IRI this summer. If you wish to gain some refereeing experience at this top-notch event in Indiana, feel free to PM me.

Being a FIRST referee (especially the head ref) is one of the 3-4 hardest jobs at a FIRST event. Not only are these people scrutinized for making the right call, they are also partially responsible for coordination with the scoring table, match timing, field reset, field safety, field cueing, and field operation. They have to constantly scan the field during a match. They must be a leader in order to coach, empower and make quick decisions with other referees. They need to be skilled in psychology in order to listen to, debate with, and console drive teams. Also, the refs must have the patience of a saint in order to deal with uppity announcers and m/c's. Oh, yeah, and they need to know the rules better than everyone else (or staff their crew with someone who does... like Amy P. this year at IRI).

All this and more... If a debatable call is made, refs have to deal with the on-line scrutiny that takes place on these forums. No one is calling out the field queing person or the pit administrator for 2 weeks after the event. Let's see some love for these fine people. Let's give it up for the refs.

Andy B.

Last edited by Andy Baker : 11-08-2005 at 12:25 AM.
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Unread 11-08-2005, 01:04 AM
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Re: This year we need instant replay

I agree with most everyone else that replay is not an option for FIRST for the many reasons laid out (mostly time).

I also agree that refs don't make 100% of their calls right no matter how hard they try. And watching FIRST refs I have seen them make outstanding calls in tough situations.

That being said it should be an objective of the game design committee to minimize the opportunities for missed calls in both the manner of making the game fair and safe.

With the loading zones this year their was more flags and more opportunities for missed calls than in some previous years. Some thought should be given for ways to eliminate the need for the refs sight and judgment in certain situations.

Most penalties come from a need of safety and in eliminating the situations where they are needed you will create a safer, fairer game. But also you may eliminate vital parts to the game such as human/robot interactions.

So basically, thinking about how penalties will play into the game and finding ways to get rid of them when possible can avoid headaches like missed calls or the need for some type of instant replay. Also, maybe it would let more games be won by a team and not lost on penalties.
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