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Unread 08-13-2006, 06:40 PM
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Why do we think we are better?

Well, as time goes by, I hear more and more about how FIRSTers are more morally upright than everyone else.

We aren't.

We are just like everyone else, and we should stop thinking we are better. Lets face it: Non FIRSTers don't look to FIRST as their moral role model. As much as we try to follow Gracious professionalism as a rule, Not all of us do and we are by no means a perfect community. We are just as biased or "corrupted" as the people around us. Acting like we are to be looked up to is wrong because we are just people.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not the perfect example of gracious professionalism, even though I try to be... and I think it's time for us as a community to stop pretending that we are to be looked up to, as though we do no wrong.

For every apparently gracious professional FIRSTER that visits CD, there are a lot more people who have no Idea about Gracious professionalism that don't Visit it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are no perfect communities, and I think that we should stop saying that we are, We should instead accept the fact that we are flawed and just try to fix it.

Until we can prove that we are perfectly gracious and professional, we should stop saying that we are better than our peers.

I'm not bashing GP at all, I just won't pretend to be something that I'm not, and I definitely won't correct someone else's problems until I have fixed all of my own.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 06:46 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

I agree whole heartedly. Not enough people know about GP to know that the people that practice it can be looked up upon.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 06:47 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Why do FIRSTers think we're better?
To paraphrase The Hacker Manifesto, "because we judge people by what they say and think, not what they look like."

To put it another way, it's because we hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear, while so many others only care about looks, clothes, cars, etc.

Or at least that's the vibe I've always gotten. Maybe I'm just cynical.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:36 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

OK, Arefin. and Anna.

Quote:
To put it another way, it's because we hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear, while so many others only care about looks, clothes, cars, etc.
Quote:
I am a bit surprised that you would post a picture of your team breaking the rules. This is not what FIRST is about. How do you expect others to trust you and your team when you flaunt the rules???? [img]images/smilies/confused.gif[/img]
Quote:
Whether or not the prices are exorbant is not the debate, they're still breaking rules and openly admitting to it, look at the title "Sneaky at Gen Con". To be honest I would have probably done similar, but I wouldn't tell everyone about it so publically, we're supposed to be setting examples, not showing off disobedience. I don't care really that the rules were broken, it does kind of bother me to see that fact flaunted about in a "Look what we did!" manner though.


Quote:
So what you are saying is that if its only a little penalty then it is OK as long as you are not caught. If I were to use the Nothing-But-DeWalt solution on our robot and used 6 Fisher Price motors then that would be OK as long as I didn't get caught. No one can see the motor inside the case so it is OK. The only penalty that I face is that if caught I would have to change out the motor before my next match. No big deal so I guess that makes it OK.

Are these really the standards of most FIRST participants? Maybe I will post a poll to see.


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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:40 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Basically this is a branch off from this thread and this thread.

Guys, this is getting ridiculous times a million now. This all started because people thought a team was sneaking a case of mountain dew into a convention center, even when they had permission to bring it in. They posted a picture as a humorous joke. And now it has suddenly exploded into three completely varying and abstract topics, none of which really make any sense at all and are just leading to a bunch of off season arguing.
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Unread 08-15-2006, 01:14 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux
Basically this is a branch off from this thread and this thread.

Guys, this is getting ridiculous times a million now. This all started because people thought a team was sneaking a case of mountain dew into a convention center, even when they had permission to bring it in. They posted a picture as a humorous joke. And now it has suddenly exploded into three completely varying and abstract topics, none of which really make any sense at all and are just leading to a bunch of off season arguing.

Yeah this dude is right. I've been reading this thread for like 5 minutes and it's just one big arguement.

SO ANYWAY...can one of you programmers out there somehow get me more sources on Limewire? It's driving me insane. come on now.
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Unread 08-15-2006, 01:52 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

To answer the question as asked:

We think we are better because that's how we become better.

Choose to think of yourself in a particular way, and you will act to match your expectations. "Being better" is a goal, and a very effective way to attain that goal is to behave as if you were already better.
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Unread 08-15-2006, 02:39 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

I know this thread is growing longer and longer like Rip Van Winkle's beard -
but I've been thinking about Cody's initial post and some afterwards and I have a story about one of my first mentors when I was a teenager. I did a search to see if I have posted this before and nothing came up.
keyword: wheel barrow
keyword: elephant dung

I think I'm safe in thinking that I have not posted this story.

My 9th grade science teacher was a woman who was in her early 50's. (I'm now older than she was at the time of this story. How about t-h-a-t!) She had a wonderful knot of hair that twisted and turned on the back of her head. It was a bun but she made it more like a Celtic knot. Because she could. I think she did it to give us a focus when she was turned to the board, writing.

I was not the most studious student or the brightest. I was average. But for some reason she saw something in me - as she did all of her students -
One day she came into the classroom with enormous bandages on both of her knees. I was very concerned because I could see seepage and knew it must be painful. When I asked, she responded that she had decided it was time to learn to ride the bicycle. It was something she had wanted to do and now was a good time. The road that she learned on was gravel and her husband had given her a wee bit too much of a push. Down she went on both knees, badly. She smiled and said she couldn't wait til the next weekend and she could try again.

We had a circus that would visit our town every spring. One day she said that she was going to the circus after school. With a smile she told me that the elephant trainers allowed her to load the elephant dung in her wheel barrow for her to take home to her garden. She had a large garden whose produce always won ribbons at the county fair. She claimed it was the elephant dung that she used in her garden each spring.

I was 15, a teenager and very shy. I had absolutely no idea how on earth I was ever going to be as creative or as funny or as charming as my science teacher but I decided she was my role model. Others have entered my life as I've grown but she was one of the major ones who has shaped and guided me all of these years and continues to. Maybe trying to be more like her when I was 15, 16, 17 - could have been seen as a stretch by my peers and adults around me. But it gave me a roadmap and a path, helping me form myself into the adult I wanted to be. I am not my science teacher but I think sometimes a glimpse of her humor pops out.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 06:54 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

If we do not stand for the principals of GP then what exactly do we stand for?
We are trying to change the culture. To seek "business as usual" makes no sense when you see the insanity that plauge most other competitive sports (which has been taking a severe black eye recently with the doping allegations on all leveles). At the very least would you try?
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:01 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

We have no right to tell others what they are doing wrong when we do so much ourselves that is un-Graciously professional.

and Kokoed, we stand FOR the INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:07 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
We have no right to tell others what they are doing wrong when we do so much ourselves that is un-Graciously professional.

and Kokoed, we stand FOR the INSPIRATION and RECOGNITION of SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY.
Well I'll tell you what.
I don't know how you do things on your team we TRY to teach our kids to respect the rules of FIRST, the rules of society, and the rules of the team because that is how we do things.
We are not always successful. We had kids and nentors who were rude and disrespectful. We had kids and mentors who had broke rules.
We also have a code of conduct that holds them accountable for their actions because we care how we are perceived and how FIRST and perceived in the general community and in the FIRST community!
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:17 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
We have no right to tell others what they are doing wrong when we do so much ourselves that is un-Graciously professional.
Hmm... when did I ever say that we were better than any other community or any normal people? I don't even remember of telling any other community that they are doing this/that wrong. I don't think I have ever discussed that with someone.

Cody, I will agree with you where you said not all of us are perfect or not all of us practice gracious professionalism. No one is perfect, you can't expect anyone to be either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are no perfect communities, and I think that we should stop saying that we are, We should instead accept the fact that we are flawed and just try to fix it.
I would like you to point out where we said "we are perfect," so we can aplogize to whoever we said that to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
I'm not bashing GP at all, I just won't pretend to be something that I'm not, and I definitely won't correct someone else's problems until I have fixed all of my own.
We don't want you to pretend somebody you are not either. Again Cody, please show us where we went and corrected someone and gave wrong advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
Well, as time goes by, I hear more and more about how FIRSTers are more morally upright than everyone else.
I don't hear any of these that you are trying to point out, I spend all my extra time on FIRST events in South Florida or building prototypes. You know usually when I meet someone new and they ask me what I do for fun, I say, I build robots. In response I hear them tell me "wow, that's cool." I don't go ahead and tell them, "Ya, man, I build robots, you are definitely nowhere near my standards," moreover I ask them to come watch a competition or come join us on the team so he/she can enjoy the time just like we all do.

What am I trying to say Cody? I don't understand the purpose of you bringing up this topic without any proof or actions that has been taken beforehand which might have put down others. So, please point us to the right directions and tell us the reason for brining up this topic. Thank you.


Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck
To put it another way, it's because we hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear, while so many others only care about looks, clothes, cars, etc.
Cody, do you not agree with what this person has to say? Do you not have values that are honest?

I will come out and tell the truth. Even though I am a FIRSTer I care about clothing (yes I have closet full of FIRST shirts), but I do have other clothing that I care for (just incase you doubt, ask Nehalita on this forum), I care about my cars and dream about them. So what? I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Last edited by Arefin Bari : 08-13-2006 at 08:08 PM.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:06 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are no perfect communities, and I think that we should stop saying that we are, We should instead accept the fact that we are flawed and just try to fix it.
I don't know if I'm missing something here, Cody, but when and where did a FIRSTer ever say that we have a perfect community and that we are not flawed? Where was this ever implied? I don't see it.
By being in FIRST aren't we recongizing that our world is flawed and trying to make a difference about it?
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:09 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anna~marie
I don't know if I'm missing something here, Cody, but when and where did a FIRSTer ever say that we have a perfect community and that we are not flawed? Where was this ever implied? I don't see it.
By being in FIRST aren't we recongizing that our world is flawed and trying to make a difference about it?
Here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneck
To put it another way, it's because we hold values like honesty, integrity, and intelligence dear, while so many others only care about looks, clothes, cars, etc.
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Unread 08-13-2006, 07:16 PM
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Re: Why do we think we are better?

I really think this is an unfair thread. Not every one in FIRST thinks that we're better than non-FIRSTers. I know some non-FIRSTers that are so respectful to people, and when I talk to them, it's like we're on the same level GP wise. I will never think a FIRSTer is superior to a non-FIRSTer and visa versa. We are all people, all EQUALS. Just because someone has a more respectful manner doesn't mean their better. Yeah, there are some people who go around saying that FIRST is better, but compare that to the amount of individuals who don't. Cody, not to be mean or anything but you basically just stereotyped everyone in FIRST, and as someone who doesn't think that people in FIRST are better than non-FIRSTers and visa versa, I'm slightly offended. Yes I understand you're on my side (I think?) but to say that everyone else isn't isn't right.
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