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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:22 PM
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The Game Breaker

I don't know who all has thought about it but is anyone taking the "469 approach from breakaway” this year? While I have seen threads talking about the idea. Have any teams been able to hit the full court shot with consistency? If so and you wouldn't mind sharing a little what type of shooter do you have; baseball machine, catapult, other?
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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:24 PM
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Re: The Game Breaker

The way the game works, the balls you score are returned to your opponents. You rely on your opponents scores to make points. This means a 469-like strategy won't be possible unless you sit in the opponent's alley and shoot the balls your inbounders feed you into the hoops from the side, though that's very dangerous, and can lead to penalties that along with the inaccuracies make the strategy not worthwhile.
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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:31 PM
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Re: The Game Breaker

If a robot could be human loaded and the alley is a protected zone even if a team missed 1 of 4 shots (this could be beneficial if the other team makes anything lower than the top goal and the shooting team was aiming for the top otherwise it would just cancel out what the other team did) the other two robots could either work on scoring the missed shots or playing D on the other team. If nothing else and the team could get the robot accurate enough in theory they should be able to end in a tie minimum.
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Unread 02-28-2012, 11:39 PM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZAD1 View Post
If a robot could be human loaded and the alley is a protected zone even if a team missed 1 of 4 shots (this could be beneficial if the other team makes anything lower than the top goal and the shooting team was aiming for the top otherwise it would just cancel out what the other team did) the other two robots could either work on scoring the missed shots or playing D on the other team. If nothing else and the team could get the robot accurate enough in theory they should be able to end in a tie minimum.
True, however then the bot turns into a feeder bot, and I think as the game progresses, we'll find inbounders taking away the need for feeder bots by passing the ball through the slot, and making it bounce over to the other side. While it doesn't make a point, it's very unlikely a feeder bot would make the point from that distance and angle, and with the lack of a feeder bot, the third bot could easily be another offensive beast, making scoring persistent throughout the whole match. If you want something close to 469 in 2010, the closest you'll get is teams stealing balls from their opponent's alley next to them and scoring those, thereby restricting the flow of balls to that small area, until a robot of the opposing team comes into the alley and gives everyone penalties.

Yup, looks like the GDC thought long and hard on this game. I don't see a chokehold strategy that doesn't involve a large possibility of penalties occurring to those who try the strategy.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 01:14 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

How about a bot that takes inbounder feeds and launches them into another bot's large hopper sitting on the key. With an appendage to have a wide catch net it can be quite a large target. The key bot makes consistent 3 pointers. Every basket is answered with three points. Then it comes down to hybrid and balancing.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 01:25 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvriezen View Post
How about a bot that takes inbounder feeds and launches them into another bot's large hopper sitting on the key. With an appendage to have a wide catch net it can be quite a large target. The key bot makes consistent 3 pointers. Every basket is answered with three points. Then it comes down to hybrid and balancing.
Why do you need a robot taking the inbounder's feeds to do this?
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Unread 02-29-2012, 01:50 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAZAD1 View Post
I don't know who all has thought about it but is anyone taking the "469 approach from breakaway” this year? While I have seen threads talking about the idea. Have any teams been able to hit the full court shot with consistency? If so and you wouldn't mind sharing a little what type of shooter do you have; baseball machine, catapult, other?
Even if someone manages to do this, it is not a chokehold strategy.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 06:46 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Why do you need a robot taking the inbounder's feeds to do this?
A single bot scoring 3 reliably by shooting for an 18" hoop from the inbound lane seems quite iffy given the distance and variation in ball characteristics. Aiming for a 52" or wider catch net is very doable.

Not a perfect game winning strategy but a very good one.
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Last edited by jvriezen : 02-29-2012 at 06:50 AM.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 08:21 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
Why do you need a robot taking the inbounder's feeds to do this?
If the question is why can't the Inbounder feed the KeyBot themselves, from what I've seen those passes are entirely defendable (able to be blocked). Not always easy, but quite possible and very important if the KeyBot is good.

If the question is whether the FeedBot can score, let's ask Team 41.


I'm a little confused by the definition of "chokehold". If I can answer every basket with 3 points, I'll tie in teleop if nothing else. Is it because you can't count on that one extra point?
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Unread 02-29-2012, 10:04 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

I don't think we'll see many precise and accurate half-court shooting robots, let alone full-court shots.

The precision is difficult due to the differences in the coefficient of restitution (aka squishiness) of the basketballs; each ball is slightly different, and each ball changes at different rates as they are picked up, fired, run over, etc. on the field. While the balls will likely all be in similar new condition at the start of the competition, over the course of the competition some balls will be (ab)used more than others and replaced by attrition, thus leading to big differences in ball quality by Saturday.

The accuracy is difficult due to the cone of error of lining up your shots from 25-50' away. Being off by 5 degrees from the fender will probably not cause your robot to miss a shot; but the same error from across the field may as well be a mile.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 10:20 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

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Originally Posted by Siri View Post
I'm a little confused by the definition of "chokehold". If I can answer every basket with 3 points, I'll tie in teleop if nothing else. Is it because you can't count on that one extra point?
It's not a chokehold strategy because it doesn't absolutely guarantee you a win. It doesn't even guarantee you a tie unless you're working against a completely clueless opponent. Since your ball supply depends on your opponent's scoring, they can easily disrupt this strategy. All they have to do is start hoarding balls towards the end of the match. If they arrange things so they have 9 balls in robots and 6 balls behind the wall with 20 seconds to go, then you're in serious trouble. They score 9 balls in rapid succession and then head to the bridge to balance. You somehow have to score those 9 balls and go balance in the final 20 seconds to make up the deficit.

That's not to say it's not a very strong strategy. You'd need a pretty strong alliance to defeat it. But it doesn't meet the definition of "chokehold".
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Unread 02-29-2012, 10:27 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siri View Post
If the question is why can't the Inbounder feed the KeyBot themselves, from what I've seen those passes are entirely defendable (able to be blocked). Not always easy, but quite possible and very important if the KeyBot is good.
This. Any alliance that does not send a feederbot will be subject to having the inbounder intercepted. And ther'll be little to no reason not to go into the lane as no opposing robots will be near. Just watch for them to come across the barrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siri View Post
If the question is whether the FeedBot can score, let's ask Team 41.
It's not weather a feederbot can score, but whether a feederbot can score conisitantly. Condisering the accuracy needed, and inconsistancy of the balls ... my gut says not very consistant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Siri View Post
I'm a little confused by the definition of "chokehold". If I can answer every basket with 3 points, I'll tie in teleop if nothing else. Is it because you can't count on that one extra point?
"chokehold" means not giving the ball back to the opponent. This is not possible in this game as every score gives the ball back to the oponent.

Answering every basket with a 3 pointer is not likely. Inaccuracies in the shooters, inconsistancy with the balls, and defense will ensure that.

Prediction: early on, games will be won in autonomous and by balancing. As the weeks go on, games will be determined by who rebounds the best (limiting additional shots by your opponent).
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Unread 02-29-2012, 10:33 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Agree, that even a 50% accuracy rate (unlikely) isn't a chokehold. That isn't to say such a bot wouldn't be very valuable to the right alliance, so long as the shots are accurate. Don't expect to be higly-ranked with this strategy unless you have a great autonomous and have consistent partners (my prediction anyways).
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Unread 02-29-2012, 11:21 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
It's not weather a feederbot can score, but whether a feederbot can score conisitantly. Condisering the accuracy needed, and inconsistancy of the balls ... my gut says not very consistant.
I don't expect high consistency either, but I would like to find out the accuracy of teams like 41. (I meant my comment literally: ask them whether shooting the for hoop is more or less effective than shooting for the KeyBot.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Prediction: early on, games will be won in autonomous and by balancing. As the weeks go on, games will be determined by who rebounds the best (limiting additional shots by your opponent).
That seems to been true most years, except on occasions that the endgame points are of the same rough magnitude but relatively difficult (e.g. 2010 hanging).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
It's not a chokehold strategy because it doesn't absolutely guarantee you a win. It doesn't even guarantee you a tie unless you're working against a completely clueless opponent. Since your ball supply depends on your opponent's scoring, they can easily disrupt this strategy. All they have to do is start hoarding balls towards the end of the match. If they arrange things so they have 9 balls in robots and 6 balls behind the wall with 20 seconds to go, then you're in serious trouble. They score 9 balls in rapid succession and then head to the bridge to balance. You somehow have to score those 9 balls and go balance in the final 20 seconds to make up the deficit.
Thanks for the explanation. This would be a great showdown--sounds like an Einstein match-up. I have to say any alliance that could score 9 balls that fast would be pretty incredible itself.
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Unread 02-29-2012, 11:39 AM
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Re: The Game Breaker

If I had a "game breaker" strategy (which I don't), I wouldn't present it here. I would introduce it at the proper strategic moment.

If such a strategy exists, we'll see it soon enough. If its not hardware-specific, everybody else will be trying it next week if the GDC doesn't ban it with an update.

I hope nobody finds one. There appear to be plenty of ways for smart teamwork to prevail over a lone superstarbot this year. That would be great to see.
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