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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-24-2005, 02:25 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bharat Nain
I would be disappointed too because I believe hard core coding is the way to go.
As great as hard core command line programming is, it is not for everyone. If you can understand it - you have a major advantage. But not everyone can easily understand that stuff. That is why most modern computers use use a GUI instead of command line to access programs. Apple realized that in the 1980s, that in order for computers to be bought by the masses, they had to be easy to use. They figured that ordinary people didn't care if their OS took up more memory space. Sure, the GUI isn't as powerful or as efficient as command line can be, but the GUI's are more user friendly - which means more people can use them.

Another reason why a GUI-based application for programming the FRC robots is greatly needed is that everyone learns and comprehends things differently. Some people can be geniuses, but if you lectured them all day, they wouldn't remember a thing. Other people need to be able to "see" things to comprehend them. I have to be able to "see" things to comprehend them, which is why I am great at the mechanical end of things, because I can "see" all the parts in my head and "see" how they move and interact. EasyC for Vex comes very easy to me, because I can look at the icons and "see" exactly what it does.

Right now, lets consider everyone's robot. How many this year had noteworthy autonomous programs? Not a whole lot, which is why GUI-based software for programming robots is such a great idea. This helps to balance the playing field. Now, even though it may not be as powerful, the average sophistication of the programming will dramatically increase, because now a wider variety of people can use this software.

Because of all this, for the 2006 game - expect to see a harder, longer, and more sophisticated autonomous mode with multiple tasks of varying difficulty levels.
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Last edited by artdutra04 : 10-24-2005 at 02:29 PM.
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Unread 10-24-2005, 04:18 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bharat Nain
I shall second that
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY HINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You already have it.

-dave
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Unread 10-24-2005, 04:40 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
You already have it.

-dave
YESSSSSSSS!!!

Okay guys, start paging through his post history...
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Unread 10-24-2005, 05:42 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

"the fox is in the hen house" was posted a while ago as a Dave hint, as well as "think of hovercraft's and the English Channel"


hmmmmm
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Unread 10-24-2005, 05:49 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phrontist
YESSSSSSSS!!!

Okay guys, start paging through his post history...
Let's see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Guy: Tell me why we are doing this again?
Girl: Because Billfred dropped a hint about making a robot that can change lightbulbs. I figured that we should take the hint, since he is on the GDC and he should know.
Robot with fine motor skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Not at all. An amazing amount can be done with welding, brazing, housed joints, polymer-based adhesives, rivets, spring clips, e-rings, Dutchman pins, proper interference fits, pocket hole joinery, soldering, collaring, swaging, pinned tenon joints, etc. etc. etc. There are LOTS of ways to connect one item to another without using the bolt/washer/nut answer that almost everyone defaults to - and without resorting to cheap-looking tape.

I really like the idea of a rule that will really push teams about of their "comfort zone" and into an area where they have to think about ways to solve problems by other than the obvious solution.

-dave

[/me gets off hobby horse]
Lowered budget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Very cool! Now we can get a transparent yttrium oxide ceramic dome to cover the CMUcam so it doesn't get trashed when our robot spins out of control again (everyone that went to IRI remembers our "death spiral dance"). But I wonder if it will fit within the robot parts budget...

-dave
Uh...raised budget?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
So far, everyone is takling their personal pet peeve and trying to find a way to make the rule associated with a certain topic/application/mechanism less restrictive. That is fine, and everyone is certainly entitled to riding their own hobby horse. So I will hop on mine. I think that folks are headed in the wrong direction. I think that we should look for potential rules that can be made MORE restrictive, and scale back the "almost anything goes" philosophy that has become associated with the robot construction rules over the past several years. I believe that this philosophy has lead to a lot less true creativity and innovation in the robots, as teams have just gone out and bought solutions to design problems rather than creating solutions from a kit part that was never intended to do the job for which it would now be used. I would be all in favor of adding more restrictions back in to the robot construction rules to bring back some of the real creativity that every team displayed during the early years of FIRST.

For example, what about a rule that says "no threaded fasteners of any type are permitted on the robot."* If it were up to me, I would add a rule like that. Oh, wait, it is...

-dave

* you think I am joking, don't you? hehhehheh
....Lowered budget????

I'm worried about the water game after this little exchange, specifically because of Dave's selective editing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veselin Kolev
There have always been problems with using mecanum for FIRST: firstly the programming and control is tricky, and making the wheel itself is rather anoying. I for one will hopefully be having a mecanum robot this year, so I guess I shouldn't be complaining. I chose to go this path... but anyway, this article is a very interesting one. I appreciate how they push the design of the mecanum wheel to its limit in efficiency. However, I think the most I would ever consider is putting pneumatic locks on the rollers to improve forward efficiency.

Thanks for posting this article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Oh? Why?


-dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Richards
Dave, don't be mean to people who haven't already read the technical specs for this year's water game. It's not our fault we aren't on the game design committee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Admittedly, a bit tongue-in-cheek. But not entirely. There are multiple layers of real questions embedded in that simple little two-word interrogatory. Not all questions, and not all data, are obvious.

-dave

p.s. if you reacted quickly like some and think that the original question means "hey, don't use Mechanum wheels this year" then you haven't looked deep enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Hmmm. Funny you should mention that. Somebody once told me that Tammy Trimble used to be a majorette...

-dave
I went back through mid-August on these posts.

So it looks like we've either got
A) A drastically lowered budget with a restricted supply list that requires more creative ingenuity a-la Apollo 13
or
B)A raised budget that at least allows space age materials so we can do some sort of aquatic game.

And either A) or B) will invovle picking up sticks, which is very difficult to do, when you think about it. Fine motor skills on the robot.

Personally, I'm predicting A. I don't think the organization has got the cojones for aquatic robotic warfare yet.

--Petey
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Last edited by Petey : 10-24-2005 at 05:52 PM.
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Unread 10-24-2005, 05:57 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petey

Personally, I'm predicting A. I don't think the organization has got the cojones for aquatic robotic warfare yet.

--Petey
gosh.....what a great explanation. I think you're right..........
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Unread 10-24-2005, 07:28 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winged Globe
Wait... what?? Looking at the example for FRC controllers, it just looks like all the code thrown into a flow-chart interface (a graphical tool used in real computer science classes I've seen to teach the core logic/reasoning/organizing ANYONE needs in order to program). This isn't just script code like "turn left for blah seconds"--there seems to be a direct correlation between what the flow-chart displays and what the actual code will be (if count Bit 7 ON yes--> SET rc_dig_out16 ON, etc. etc.). It looks like you can comment directly into the flow-chart boxes to describe what is going on, too.

This means that the only difference between the flow-chart and actual code may be purely formating in nature, in which case, how does this have no correlation to the real world? Heck, it doesn't even look like pseudo-code; you have to use real variable names, real subroutine names, real function calls! And once a new programmer feels comfortable with the logic, *CLICK* and they see the real code! And it looks almost exactly like what they did with the flow-chart! "Wow! Maybe this programming stuff isn't so bad! I can do this..."

I can understand the nerd attachment to CLI's and aversion of all things graphical, but if the examples show the actual product delivered (and if FIRST/Kevin Watson brings the scripts back in addition to this interface, by all means, but that isn't this specific program), this is the most code-like graphical interface I've seen. I'm almost afraid that some newbie programmers will still be puzzled by it, as it isn't as graphical and perhaps as intuitive as Lego's interface or even Robolab. I really don't see what the big pout is all about. This seems to head in the right direction to get new programmers into the fold, while allowing novice programmers to transition and advanced programmers to keep hacking at their leisure.
Hey, since I dare not comment on the water game thing, the graphical chart flow thing would be great if it was set up like a dreamweaver type program.

You can do everything graphically, everything in pure html, or you can be really smart and do a combo. By throwing something together stuff then going into the code and working out the fine details, you can get much more done much more quickly. And it lets you learn faster by allowing you to obtain the code you want graphically, then seeing the actual code that doesn't have ten thousand syntax errors!

As far as increased budget with better materials, I'm worried for two reasons. First of all, just because you're allowed to spend 10,000 smackers doesn't mean everyone can afford to.

Secondly, my team, myself included, have a nasty habit of dropping/breaking the most expensive, least easily obtainable pieces of hardware. Yytrium oxide dome dustpan is what we really need.
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  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-24-2005, 09:15 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Oh? Why?


-dave


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Richards
Dave, don't be mean to people who haven't already read the technical specs for this year's water game. It's not our fault we aren't on the game design committee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Admittedly, a bit tongue-in-cheek. But not entirely. There are multiple layers of real questions embedded in that simple little two-word interrogatory. Not all questions, and not all data, are obvious.

-dave

p.s. if you reacted quickly like some and think that the original question means "hey, don't use Mechanum wheels this year" then you haven't looked deep enough.

-------------------------------------------------
Study the two words nice and close..."Oh, Why" Say them together quickly. ohwhy (think phonotically). OI!
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Unread 10-24-2005, 10:43 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampdude
Usually around this time of year someone hears a rumor (...)

No Fasteners?
Rick walks in, blows the dust off his keyboard. "Is this thing on? Hello?"

New season. First post.

As to "no fasteners," I have a gallon of epoxy, and I'm not afraid to spread it.

I think severely restricting construction budgets would be great for the sport. There is really no way for the $6,500 "have nots" to compete with the $50,000 "haves."
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Unread 10-25-2005, 05:41 AM
Ian Curtis Ian Curtis is offline
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Robot with fine motor skills?

Nope! There is a joke laying around here somewheres which Billfred had something to do with, that says "How many FIRSTERS does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" The answer is "It doesn't matter, it'll still take six weeks." Therefore Dave is confirming that we will again have six weeks.
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Unread 10-25-2005, 11:18 AM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Dave, If you're going to outlaw all basic fasteners, then at least do it right and get rid of the velcro too.
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Aaacckkk! Guurrkkk! Sssnorrrrkkkkk! Brain ... explode ... will. AAAArrrrggghhh!! Must ... not ... think ... about ... 2007 ... yet. Uuurrgghh!!! Still ... have .... to ... resolve ... how ... to ... pack ... parachutes ... for ... 2006 ... Ooorrrkkggnn!!
Sweet!

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Unread 10-25-2005, 11:48 AM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

OH! you reminded me of a very old hint.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319597
As seen in Squirrelrock's sig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Aaacckkk! Guurrkkk! Sssnorrrrkkkkk! Brain ... explode ... will. AAAArrrrggghhh!! Must ... not ... think ... about ... 2007 ... yet. Uuurrgghh!!! Still ... have .... to ... resolve ... how ... to ... pack ... parachutes ... for ... 2006 ... Ooorrrkkggnn!!
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Unread 10-25-2005, 11:59 AM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdiwnab
OH! you reminded me of a very old hint.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=319597
As seen in Squirrelrock's sig.
If you really want to take that one seriously, go right ahead. I am discarding it...


...although I'll probably feel really stupid about it when the game comes out
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Look what I did to Dave:
Aaacckkk! Guurrkkk! Sssnorrrrkkkkk! Brain ... explode ... will. AAAArrrrggghhh!! Must ... not ... think ... about ... 2007 ... yet. Uuurrgghh!!! Still ... have .... to ... resolve ... how ... to ... pack ... parachutes ... for ... 2006 ... Ooorrrkkggnn!!
Sweet!

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Unread 10-25-2005, 02:16 PM
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Re: 2006 game hints?

I won't repost this, but I keep on thinking that baton thing Dave posted in the other thread is part of this year's game.

--Petey
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Unread 10-25-2005, 03:45 PM
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Umm Errr...
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Re: 2006 game hints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petey
I won't repost this, but I keep on thinking that baton thing Dave posted in the other thread is part of this year's game.

--Petey
I agree:
*its very random and cryptic.
*if you will remember, dave has a history of giving away the game hints early on CD
*the pic looks to be in dave's ani-style


wow... baton shaped objects... that would be a nightmare. Now assuming that this is the hint, i do not think it would be quite that obvious. Grrr. Once again we have a hint involving an object and a person. Then again, the stairway to heaven hint was pretty easy so this might be too.

----- edit ------
scratch the pic being something dave made. The pic is hosted on http://www.americanbaton.com/


---- edit -------
google doesn't seem to know alot about Tammy Trimble
http://www.ctr.vt.edu/index.cfm?fuse... PersonID=879
and a post by a Tammy Trimble on a nudist forum were the only things i turned up
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