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Unread 05-15-2012, 06:51 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

This is a step in the right direction. And a BIG one. I like the move--bring in the known "robots with problems on the field" and try for two days to either replicate the problem or find the issue, with team members present. Then the call for all the other data...

I think FIRST got the message the field sent.





Now, let's see if FIRST will send official observers to offseason events that use a FIRST field...or at least take reports of potential field issues.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 06:54 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by normpear2 View Post
It could be the lack of available empty Channels for WiFi to broadcast over.
The fields currently use 5ghz 802.11N. A field has one AP with 6/7 virtual networks on the same channel set. 802.11 is also capable of running multiple networks on a single channel, although that's not terribly efficient, as the error rate will be fairly high, but that's why 802.11 needs so much bandwidth and error correction code.

However, that dosen't stop the D-link bridge from scanning all of the 2.4ghz networks it finds.

Another however, this thread is not about speculating on what happened. I am glad that they acknowledge that there is a radio/communication problem.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 07:32 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by apalrd View Post
The fields currently use 5ghz 802.11N. A field has one AP with 6/7 virtual networks on the same channel set. 802.11 is also capable of running multiple networks on a single channel, although that's not terribly efficient, as the error rate will be fairly high, but that's why 802.11 needs so much bandwidth and error correction code.
I was down on the floor at Einstein, and I pulled out my wifi scanner during one of the speeches. I don't remember what the 2.4 spectrum looked like, but 5GHz was completely clear with the exception of the Einstein field. However, I was surprised to find that all 6 robot networks are run on the same channel. Perhaps the router they use isn't capable of running over multiple channels.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 07:58 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
I am pretty sure the FMS was used at every 2012 FRC event.
They were referring to the field electronics hardware, not the FMS software (which is indeed used at all events).
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Unread 05-15-2012, 08:05 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
wrong word choice.


Well, if look at it from the "this has been happening for years" perspective, that of a pessimist, then yes, it is the wrong choice of words. But a more optimistic person could say "at least they are doing something now instead of trying to fix it during the 2013 season", in which case it would seem like a perfectly appropriate word choice. Some one who falls somewhere in between the two groups might say that it is "ironic" for an optimist to say that they are being proactive even though this has been going on for years.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 08:22 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350 View Post
Well, if look at it from the "this has been happening for years" perspective, that of a pessimist, then yes, it is the wrong choice of words. But a more optimistic person could say "at least they are doing something now instead of trying to fix it during the 2013 season", in which case it would seem like a perfectly appropriate word choice. Some one who falls somewhere in between the two groups might say that it is "ironic" for an optimist to say that they are being proactive even though this has been going on for years.
I am going to use your "optimistic" definition of "proactive" next time my wife's car breaks down and she asks me why I didn't do anything about that noise she'd been complaining about for 8 weeks.


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Unread 05-15-2012, 09:16 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Ether View Post
wrong word choice.


I can see what you mean by this, but why I selected this word, I guess, is because FIRST could have always just either blamed the individual robots or claimed it to be a fluke (or some other variation that allows them to spend no money searching for a solution) until it inevitably happened again next year.

But instead they are discrediting no claims that there was a field issue and are taking all possible steps to right the wrongs for next year. Bravo! So often do I see the wrong thing done because it is easier/more convenient/cheaper. There was a problem and they plan to fix it.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 09:19 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by normpear2 View Post
The dlinks are 5 Ghz Compatible, maybe its time to try it @ 5? There would be less interference due to the lower number of 5 Ghz compatible computers and other devices. We could run 2.4 Ghz @ home, and use 5 GHz at competitions as part of the router setup kiosk, since you are only allowed to connect via bridge or tether at competitions, it would cause no problems other than the practice fields would need Dlinks instead of the old Cisco routers.

I mean, 99% of these comm issues don't happen outside the field.

It could even be the FMS itself...
IIRC the dlinks do run on 5GHZ on the field.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 10:09 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man View Post
There was a problem and they plan to fix it.
I heartily applaud FIRST for finally reacting proactively to this ongoing problem.


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Unread 05-15-2012, 10:13 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

I am excited that they are doing this. This might help find out why we blacked out during a match during Newton Qualifications as well as 1717.
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Unread 05-15-2012, 10:14 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

First I have to ask to please not use this thread to hash out the same issues we have all covered else where.
We were contacted almost imediatly after the Championship to offer their support and invited us to provide any and all experiences/data. I am sure this was the same for all of the final 12.
I truely feel for all of the staff and volunteers that had to deal with the aftermath or the finals and all of the events prior. You could hear it in the voice of the gentlmen I spoke to.
FIRST has been more than professional and accommodating to all involved in the finals. If it could be extended to all that had issues, they would. Our community will benifit from the final 12 test.

FIRST does realize that we as a community has made this big part of our lives, so much so it powers us through the off season and creates conditions for great success in all we do. So My team and I are pleased with the offerings that FIRST has put on the table. Will it please all that read the results? I hope so. But for the nay sayers, this is life! be iterative!
See you next year, when we start this whole process over! Just for the fun of it!
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Unread 05-15-2012, 10:24 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Thank you to FIRST for making this a priority and taking a swift course of action. Thank you also to the 12 awesome FRC teams for accommodating and helping with this project.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker
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Unread 05-15-2012, 10:30 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

step in the right direction
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Unread 05-16-2012, 01:55 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Hmmmmm. I hope all teams can afford to send an adult representative in. Other than that, a step in the right direction, for sure.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 06:57 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Just to reiterate for those jumping to the end of the thread...
The field elements only (border and mechanical parts) were stored in Tenn. The electronics had been used at four prior events and were chosen for their proven track record at those prior events.
FIRST is taking this very seriously, from Jon and Dean all the way down. Everyone is committed to finding out exactly what happened. FIRST started this process right after Champs and has been working hard to collect data from all involved.

Thank you to all teams that are participating.
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