OCCRA
Go to Post We try to limit ourselves only by physics. As the first person on the planet to communicate over a quantum encrypted AOL instant messenger session, I try to ignore those limits as well. - EricVanWyk [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 05:48 AM
Ben Mitchell Ben Mitchell is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 573
Ben Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond reputeBen Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute
The rule is pretty silly, and IS a very unsportmanlike disadvantage to handicapped team members, but it also looks nice on TV, so Joe Sixpack can see that the robots are moving and no one is near the controls.

Personally, I think it should be removed - I don't think there is any important benefits to be had from this rule.
__________________
Benjamin Mitchell

Vex Robotics Competition team advisor (4 high school teams)
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 07:28 AM
Soukup's Avatar
Soukup Soukup is offline
Animation Guru
AKA: David Soukup
no team
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Grand Valley State
Posts: 303
Soukup is on a distinguished road
this rule isn't a problem.

Think...3 feet. Who is honestly going to run to the controls?
By the time you got into a rnnning stride you would be about 10 feet into the field. 3 feet is one step for most people. And since only a driver and operator ned to get there instantly. What the big deal. With a 3 foot limit could reach and be about 1 foot away from the controls. I'm sorry but I think that you guys are over-analyzing the situation.
__________________
soukupd_gv@hotmail.com

Team 74 Alumni

2003 Great Lakes, Midwest, and West Michigan Regional Animation Award Winner
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 09:44 AM
Adam Y.'s Avatar
Adam Y. Adam Y. is offline
Adam Y.
no team (?????)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,979
Adam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to beholdAdam Y. is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to Adam Y.
Quote:
she's handicapped, and won't be able to jump 3 feet in a couple of milliseconds like the rest of us. sure, she can move fast if she needs, but it's unfairly stressing her.
Well if she's handicapped wouldn't it be a better idea if she was in the wheelchair to start with and then get out of it. What if something happened and she needed to get away from the control station fast.
__________________
If either a public officer or any one else saw a person attempting to cross a bridge which had been ascertained to be unsafe, and there were no time to warn him of his danger, they might seize him and turn him back without any real infringement of his liberty; for liberty consists in doing what one desires, and he does not desire to fall into the river. -Mill
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 11:37 AM
Eric Reed Eric Reed is offline
I am somebody now!
#0481 (De Anza Robotics Team)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 103
Eric Reed will become famous soon enoughEric Reed will become famous soon enough
My 2c

I am 99.99% sure that the purpose of this rule is to prevent people from communicating in any way with the robot during autonomous mode.

Many have been asking the questions 'can we use the e-stop to cycle through programs', 'can we use the e-stop to let another robot pass by' and 'can we reset the robot during the autonomous period'.

In my blunt opinion these questions are from those who are ungraciously trying to redefine the word 'autonomous'.

Given the intent of this rule, I think it is very unlikely that FIRST will allow a 3 foot tether on the OI controls.

It sounds to me like Innovation FIRST does not have a way to control the OI to the extent that it intended to. It seems like if a fix were possible, it would be a very simple one. Perhaps this is a hardware issue inside each team's OI, and not something they can program or fix in the competition control system.

I agree with many that the 3' rule creates a safety hazard, and a problem for those with disabilities. Another solution is needed.

Eric.
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 01:39 PM
dlavery's Avatar
dlavery dlavery is offline
Curmudgeon
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 3,168
dlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond reputedlavery has a reputation beyond repute
Eric gets it.

(small flame on).

I am 100% sure that the purpose of this rule is to prevent people from communicating in any way with the robot during autonomous mode.

If everyone is upset about this rule, then you have no one to blame but yourselves. "Who, me?!??" Yes, you. All of you that, from the very first day following kick-off, have been trying to find loopholes, alternative mechanisms, sneaky approaches, and outright cheats to get around the fact that the first 15 seconds of robot operation in this year's game must be conducted solely through the abilities of an autonomous program, without human intervention.

Go back and read through all the threads and messages that discuss how to use the E-stop button to communicate with the robot during the autonomous operations period. Or use an alternative OI. Or send signals from the audience. Or send info from the OI during the human player period. Or send "program selection" information from the human drivers. Or use the optical sensors to send signals from the human drivers. etc. etc. etc.

Based on these messages, it is clear that some people either can't or won't understand that "autonomous" means "AUTONOMOUS"!!! The intent behind the autonomous period is completely obvious - make your robot "smart enough" that it can play for 15 seconds ON IT'S OWN. That means the robot runs without ANY communication from the human operators, team members, folks in the audience, your grandmother at home, or anyone else.

Since some people refuse to abide by the intent of the autonomous period, and insist on creating ways to get around the intent of the game design instead of trying to play the game within the rules, FIRST has been backed into a corner. YOU have forced them to create rules (and this is not the last rule you will see on this topic) that will make it difficult to circumvent the intention of the autonomy period (I hesitate to say "impossible" because as soon as I do, someone will come up with another way to weasel around the latest rules).

If, as a result, you don't like the impacts of this rule, or some advanced OI designs are impacted, or some teams become disadvantaged, that's life. Do you want to do something about it? OK, then the next time FIRST comes out with a rule like "you have to stay behind a line 3 feet from the player station" then don't immediately respond with things like "we can just C-clamp a 3-foot-long shelf on the operator station" or "just use a 3-foot cable to reach the controls" and searches for new loopholes and technicalities. Instead, try to understand WHY the rule is in place, and how you can work WITHIN the rule to design a better robot, build a better team, and have a better experience. In other words, stop being LAWYERS and start being ENGINEERS!

(small flame off).


Personally, I like the rule. Not only do I not think it should be overturned, I would encourage FIRST to make it stronger.

-dave

-----------------------------------------

Y = AX^2 + B.... ehhh, whatever

Last edited by dlavery : 01-30-2003 at 01:50 PM.
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 02:10 PM
Unsung FIRST Hero
Bill Gold Bill Gold is offline
Retired -- 2006
no team
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 866
Bill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond reputeBill Gold has a reputation beyond repute
Eric Reed and Dave Lavery took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with them that this rule was enacted as a direct result of ungracious professionalism (trying to intentionally subvert the idea of autonomous mode) in the FIRST community.
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 02:27 PM
BBFIRSTCHICK's Avatar
BBFIRSTCHICK BBFIRSTCHICK is offline
Someone find me a FIRST team
AKA: Adriana
#1077 (was: All Stars)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Miami
Posts: 228
BBFIRSTCHICK is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to BBFIRSTCHICK
Maybe FIRST will clarify the rule in an update in the future. I do not see anything wrong with 3 feet other then a minor safety hazard...3 feet is like 1 or 2 steps away from the controllers themselves. Not much to worry about. Unless somebody's feet get tangled up and they get sent flying forward!
__________________
Team 59 "Ramtech": 2000-2002
Nationals 2001: Galileo Division Champions, National Semi-Finalist

Team 1077 "All Stars": 2002-????
Semi-Finalist, Peachtree Regional 2003 (507 and 356 Rock!)
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 02:39 PM
Ricksta's Avatar
Ricksta Ricksta is offline
Time to start planning RIDE 2015!
AKA: Rick Blight
FRC #0078 (AIR Strike)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Tiverton, RI, USA
Posts: 551
Ricksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond reputeRicksta has a reputation beyond repute
im sick of watching this. this is so ridiculous. If you can carry a 130 pound robot on to the field you can stand for 25 seconds walk 3 feet and stand for another minute45. ITS ONLY WALKING POEPLE. This is what irks me the most. Stupid ideas when you cant accept the fact that its a rule. If you cant walk 3' to the controls without hurting yourself, then you shouldn't be driving. And the rule is for everyone. so everyone has to walk 3' not just you. so in the half second it takes to walk to the controls, someone who gets there in .45 seconds wont have that much of an advantage. Its not a saftey concern its to prevent cheaters from cheating. Because if its possible someone will try it. jeez stop complaining.
__________________
Co-founder of Aquidneck Island Robotics 4-H Club RI VRC Event Partner FRC RI District Event Planning Committee Chair

  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 03:52 PM
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is online now
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,048
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Madison
Gah. You need to have your attitude adjusted.

This rule does very little except add an additional safety hazard to the game. It's already a miracle there aren't more injuries, and I just can't see the point in adding on more and more idiosyncratic rules that are patching some problems and causing still more.

If they're going to make it so that the referees need to watch alliance members anyway, why not just make a rule that prohibits touching the controls at all?

For people that design wearable control systems, either rule represents an enormous problem, making such systems impractical. They're usually quite innovative and it seems silly that such a rule would stifle that creativity.

You're not going to walk to the controls, you're going to run. If it's meant to 'wow' the audience by proving that the robots are being controlled by programming, the lull in the game as action stops will do just as well to counter than 'wow.'

It all seems ridiculous to me any of this is an issue. You can't cycle through programs, or communicate with the robot in any way whatsoever. Those should be rules enough.
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 04:14 PM
DaBruteForceGuy's Avatar
DaBruteForceGuy DaBruteForceGuy is offline
aKa - Steve Bennett
FRC #0125 (NUtrons)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston / Smithtown NY
Posts: 379
DaBruteForceGuy is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to DaBruteForceGuy
To tell you the truth....

I really don't care! i try not to waste time thinking about it, because even if i did dissaprove, it isn;t for me to worry about. Ever since i started FIRST has done an outstanding job at being "fair" and i can always tell that everything FIRST does has been thought through thoroughly.
So, instead of yelling about it, i'm gonna go get my sneakers on and practise my short distance speed burst's untill the rule is changed, or i go to competition
__________________
Team
810 > 2001-2005 - Student Founder
125 > Present - College Student

---The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes that the wind will change... the realist adjusts the sail.
***<Therapist> Tell me, is the glass half full or half empty?
***<Engineer> Neither, the glass is too big.---

....Uh, GO NUTRONS!
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 04:32 PM
DaveG702's Avatar
DaveG702 DaveG702 is offline
Registered User
#0702 (Bagel Bytes)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Culver City, CA
Posts: 11
DaveG702 is an unknown quantity at this point
Cool 3' line

You people are really overanalyzing this. I have read all the posts and after reading Update 7 I posted the question to FIRST. Their answer explains everything. 3' is not a long distance, and I don't envision seeing or hearing about anyone tripping while taking one or two steps at the beginning of the human control period and you don't need to run (it is only three feet). If everyone involved just stays calm and doesn't run, we won't have problems.

Dave

P.S. For those of you who want wearable controls, don't make it so complex that it takes 5 minutes to put on, just make it a slip on affair.
__________________
Does it work?...Yes it does...but for how long??
David Graves
Team 702
The Bagel Bytes
"Byte me"
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 04:54 PM
Ian W. Ian W. is offline
College? What?
no team (Gompei and the Herd)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Worcester, MA | Smithtown, NY
Posts: 1,464
Ian W. is a name known to allIan W. is a name known to allIan W. is a name known to allIan W. is a name known to allIan W. is a name known to allIan W. is a name known to all
Send a message via AIM to Ian W.
as i said before, i have a handicapped member of my team who is a potential driver. i think she has what it takes, and i'm pretty sure she can be a pretty good driver. this rule would hinder her abilities to be a driver. why? CAUSE SHE CAN'T JUMP 3 FEET IN .000002 MILLISECONDS! sure, she'd be able to make it in a couple of seconds max, but she can't launch herself like everyone else. second, she can't use a wheelchair, and won't use a wheelchair. why? she's not allowed to according to another FIRST rule, and she'd rather walk then use a wheelchair when possible.

as you can see, this puts me in a very hard postion. i've told her that she can most likely be a driver, if she can drive the robot good in the shop. if we have this rule, it will more or less stop her from being a driver. for the rest of the team's sake, we can't be loosing because she has an unfair disadvantage.

to get rid of this rule, a simple solution. make the E-Stop button work once during the 15 second period. hit it, you're disabled till the beginning of manual mode. it's fair if you ask me. team has one chance to stop a crazy robot. shouldn't be that hard to add in, i would think.

in any case, this rule has made my life much harder, because i don't want to tell my team member that she can't drive because of a stupid rule which is completely unfair to her. this is the most un-FIRST-like rule i've ever seen before. as far as i know, FIRST has been about getting EVERYONE, not just the healthy (as in not handicapped) people. this rule kind of shatters that notion of mine.
__________________
AIM --> Woloi
Email --> ian@woloschin.com
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 05:37 PM
DaBruteForceGuy's Avatar
DaBruteForceGuy DaBruteForceGuy is offline
aKa - Steve Bennett
FRC #0125 (NUtrons)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Boston / Smithtown NY
Posts: 379
DaBruteForceGuy is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to DaBruteForceGuy
darnyi forgot about her, maybe i should of thought..lol
but seriously, this rly stinks for my team, it's just plain unfair to hinder her abailities even farther. Please consider this, that;s all i am going to say..... OH and btw, i DO NOT want a "special case" situation for this. This is not something i want to be put against my team, or even brought up to say we have some sort of unfair advantage.... Comon, i know FIRST would be willing to change this, or atleast contemplate it.... Because this isn't a matter of how much money we have availiable to us, or where we are from, or what our resources are. I don;t mean to be another person who yells about "unfairness in FIRST" just a person who would like some human decentsy in light of a person who deals with "unfairness" constantly.
THANKS
__________________
Team
810 > 2001-2005 - Student Founder
125 > Present - College Student

---The pessimist complains about the wind, the optimist hopes that the wind will change... the realist adjusts the sail.
***<Therapist> Tell me, is the glass half full or half empty?
***<Engineer> Neither, the glass is too big.---

....Uh, GO NUTRONS!
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 07:05 PM
DaveG702's Avatar
DaveG702 DaveG702 is offline
Registered User
#0702 (Bagel Bytes)
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Culver City, CA
Posts: 11
DaveG702 is an unknown quantity at this point
Question Hmmm.....

It seems that there is a rule (GM6) that allows your driver to use her wheelchair in the Alliance Station. If you have her in her wheelchair and use another member to push her to the station, you should have no problem. It seems that FIRST has to be more liberal with their allowance of mobility aids in the alliance stations because of this rule.

Dave

P.S. FIRST has spoken on the E-Stop issue. According to team update 9, if you press the E-Stop button during Autonomous mode, your robot will be disabled not only for the duration of the autonomous period, BUT THE FIRST 30 SECONDS OF THE HUMAN CONTROL PERIOD!!!
__________________
Does it work?...Yes it does...but for how long??
David Graves
Team 702
The Bagel Bytes
"Byte me"

Last edited by DaveG702 : 01-30-2003 at 07:12 PM.
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-30-2003, 07:09 PM
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
VEX Robotics Engineer
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,112
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by Ian W.
if we have this rule, it will more or less stop her from being a driver.

in any case, this rule has made my life much harder, because i don't want to tell my team member that she can't drive because of a stupid rule which is completely unfair to her. this is the most un-FIRST-like rule i've ever seen before. as far as i know, FIRST has been about getting EVERYONE, not just the healthy (as in not handicapped) people. this rule kind of shatters that notion of mine.
If this rule stands, I'm sure FIRST would make exceptions to the rule, especially in circumstances as you described. I think if you simply emailed them, or asked in the team forum they would clarify.

I can't believe that FIRST would discriminate in ANY way against the disabled. Heck, if your friend drives I would think Deano would do everything to make it easier for her. How would she feel about driving from an IBot?

I wholeheartedly agree with M, this rule seems unnecessary. If they simply enforced the stated rule of "no communication with the robot" then it wouldnt be an issue. The new E-stop rule will also change the strategy behind an autonomous shut off. I think the only time a team will push the E-stop button now is if their robot is going to commit autonomous suicide.

Ricksta-
I hope you trip on your way to the controls, just to prove that accidents DO happen, especially to those who are cocky about it. Even the most sure footed people stumble sometimes...
__________________
In the interest of full disclosure: I work for VEX Robotics a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI).
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:29 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi