OCCRA
Go to Post Remember, WWGD? (What would Grandma Do?) - Vikesrock [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 03:36 PM
Norm M.'s Avatar
Norm M. Norm M. is offline
Registered User
#0525
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
Posts: 32
Norm M. will become famous soon enough
Match Pairings not random (not even close!)

Did any of the other regionals have really messed up qualifying pairings? At St. Louis, we had one team on the opposing alliance 4 times! Also, we had one of our matches duplicated (exact alliances)!

I'm sure that this led to some nuances in the qualifying points, for a number of reasons.

If the opposing alliance had a robot (or two) that could not get over the ramp, the scores tended to be very low as the totes got bulldozed out of scoring position. Plus, with no ramp points for the losing alliance, the 2x adders didn't amount to much. In many ways, you were better off where the teams were good enough to get over the ramp and make some points.

We were fortunate enough to qualify well, but it's really hard to figure out if we did that based on skill, or just dumb luck! I hope that they get the random number generator restarted before the next round of regionals. I feel sorry for some of the teams that had frustrating qualifying because of the non-random pairings. Everyone should have 8 different matches to give them an opportunity to show their stuff!
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 03:44 PM
Aaron Lussier's Avatar
Aaron Lussier Aaron Lussier is offline
Volunteer for hire
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 881
Aaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to beholdAaron Lussier is a splendid one to behold
At BAE I think they did an excellent job gettign us random parings and spreading out the matches as much as they could, we had matches 11, 22, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100 You really cant get much more spread out than that over two days with 44 teams competeing, as for pairings, there was problay one or two teams that we went aganist twice but that was it
__________________
Team 151 Student/Mentor 2001-2004
US Navy 2005 -2009
Volunteer 2010 - ???
Field Reset Extraordinaire
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 03:45 PM
Rob Colatutto's Avatar
Rob Colatutto Rob Colatutto is offline
Registered User
FTC #6565 (The Stuffed Dragons)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 849
Rob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to beholdRob Colatutto is a splendid one to behold
i saw that brr and grr were allied together twice on saturday at the Ohio regional. kinda like nationals last year when we didn't see 50 of the teams in our division on the feild with us
__________________
Follow me on twitter @roboticsrob and my FTC team @ftc6565
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 03:49 PM
Alavinus's Avatar
Alavinus Alavinus is offline
Siege Weapon/Robotics Guy
AKA: Andrew LaVinus
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Stafford VA
Posts: 87
Alavinus will become famous soon enoughAlavinus will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to Alavinus
At VCU, we had 3 identical matches. The same robots were on the same teams. To top it off, we wire tied our auto. switch in the right position because until elimination rounds, we were on the red alliance, on the right hand side. If that is random pairings, I need to go buy a lottery ticket...
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:15 PM
Matt Reiland's Avatar
Matt Reiland Matt Reiland is offline
'The' drive behind the drive
None #0226 (TEC CReW Hammerheads)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Troy Michigan
Posts: 712
Matt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond reputeMatt Reiland has a reputation beyond repute
I think Techno Jays at Buckeye were probably pretty sick of being our opponents after 3 matches!?
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:22 PM
sevisehda's Avatar
sevisehda sevisehda is offline
Registered User
#0666
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The South
Posts: 215
sevisehda is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to sevisehda
My experience is that the matches are too random. In the past I've had 2 matches back to back on the same day. Another day we didn't have any in the morning all were in the afternoon. The program is propobly a simple spreadsheet that only makes sure teams have the same number of matches. They could add more checks to insure duplicate matches don't occur, teams have at least 2 match breaks. It's all how much effort FIRST puts into the schedule. As for being Red all day, does that really matter? Its normally worse in smaller regionals because the lack of a pool to draw from. The larger the pool the less problems the schedules seem to have.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:26 PM
ahecht's Avatar
ahecht ahecht is offline
'Luzer'
AKA: Zan
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Billerica, MA
Posts: 976
ahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to ahecht Send a message via AIM to ahecht Send a message via Yahoo to ahecht
At BAE, our actual matches were very random, but during practice, we ended up being pared with Buzz every time.
__________________
Zan Hecht

Scorekeeper: '05 Championship DaVinci Field/'10 WPI Regional
Co-Founder: WPI-EBOT Educational Robotics Program
Alumnus: WPI/Mass Academy Team #190
Alumnus (and founder): Oakwood Robotics Team #992


"Life is an odd numbered problem the answer isn't in the back of the book." Anonymous WPI Student
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:30 PM
Joel Glidden's Avatar
Joel Glidden Joel Glidden is offline
My heart pumps diesel.
FRC #4293 (Komodo)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posts: 207
Joel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of lightJoel Glidden is a glorious beacon of light
At SLR (55 or 56 teams) we were partnered with 1215 twice in one day. We were opposed by 1005 twice, 1098 twice, and 770 four times!

-Joel
__________________
-Joel
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:36 PM
Jack's Avatar
Jack Jack is offline
FIRST Scouting Network
AKA: Andrew Schenk
FRC #0201 (The FEDS)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rochester Hills
Posts: 651
Jack is a jewel in the roughJack is a jewel in the roughJack is a jewel in the rough
Send a message via AIM to Jack
Actually, it really is not as easy to pare up the matches as you think. While i don't know how first does it, I talked with the person that made matches for a local robotics competition, and it's pretty hard to make them.

If you logically think about it, it's very hard to make a match list.

First: Are you going to assign matches to teams, or teams to matches. (IE: Are you going to loop through the team list and assign teams to matches, or are you going to loop through the empty match list and pull teams to fill that match)

Second: Now you have to insure that teams aren't going to play all back to back, but rather spread out though all the matches. (IE: For team fill: Pick match # between 1-10. Pick match # between 11-20 (and make sure that if the match is 11, that the last one wasn't 10). For match fill: Go through the first 10 matches, and pull numbers only once from a team list. Make sure that none of the teams that were in match 10 play in match 11)

Third: Attempt to prevent teams from playing with another team more than once. (IE: Have different alliance partners each time)

Forth: Make sure that the script doesn't time-out or not find a solution that passes all requirements.


As you can see... it's not as easy as you may think from a programming viewpoint as you may think.

<sort of off topic>Making lists like this really is quite hard. (Even to programmers, I first looked at making match lists and thought "This isn't hard", but once you get down to doing it... it's a pain in the butt. I've thought about it a few times, but really don't even want to know how something as large as my high school makes the class schedules. - There are sooo many constraints</>
__________________
Team 201 - 2003 Great Lakes Semifinalists & 2003 Archimedes Division Finalists :|: Webmaster of www.feds201.com -> FBI Scouting
Winner of The 2003 ChiefDelphi Web Award for: User That Started The Most Non Chit Chat Threads
Winner of: 2003 FIRST Ventures with 5451.68 End Points

All about me: http://knehcsa.vze.com
**Check out the New FIRST Scouting Network**

Last edited by Jack : 03-09-2003 at 04:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:41 PM
rmadsen55 rmadsen55 is offline
Registered User
#0213 (Dirty Birds)
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: KEENE NH
Posts: 11
rmadsen55 is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to rmadsen55
at manchester in THREE matches we were paired with a partener we had allready been allied with previously. and in one match were against a team we had allready played against as well.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 04:44 PM
DirtyBird213's Avatar
DirtyBird213 DirtyBird213 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Dean Joyal
#0213 (Dirty Birds)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Keene, NH
Posts: 63
DirtyBird213 is on a distinguished road
AT BAE we were paired with the same three robots in 6 out of our 10 matches. It does make it easy to startegy plan in second match but we did not even see 6 of the top ten finishers!
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 05:08 PM
Josh Hambright's Avatar
Josh Hambright Josh Hambright is offline
{Error Processing Custom Title}
AKA: oneangrydwarf/jtosh
no team (old school gangsta)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,617
Josh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond reputeJosh Hambright has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Josh Hambright
we had the same partner 2 of our practice sessions and we went up against the killer bees our last 2 matches.

It would have been nice to have variety but it wasn't that big of a deal.

Its just the way things turned out and we dealt with it.
__________________
Former 461 Student/Mentor. Former 1272 and 1018 Mentor. Team 1555 Super-Fan.
Science and Engineering Can Open New Doors. --S.E.C.O.N.D.--
=~=!=@= #=$=%=
Co-Founder IndianaFIRST

Share your FIRST photos on Flickr!
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 05:17 PM
GregT GregT is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: FL
Posts: 400
GregT will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GregT
Random number Generator V1.0
Starting random engine....
Buffering for output...
Random number stream:
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9

-- End Output


The problem with random numbers is you never know.
Greg
__________________
The above was my opinion. I'm wrong a lot. I'm sarcastic a lot. Try not to take me too seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 05:24 PM
rees2001's Avatar
rees2001 rees2001 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rees
FRC #0340 (Greater Rochester Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 783
rees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond reputerees2001 has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally posted by Nataku
i saw that brr and grr were allied together twice on saturday at the Ohio regional. kinda like nationals last year when we didn't see 50 of the teams in our division on the feild with us
it was actually 3 times & we had to play against them once. 2 out of our first 3 matches were against the same 2 teams. FIRST had better fix this fast or there will be alot of unhappy people. & BTW It was us that 461 was paired with for practice & we only played 1 team in the the top 10. The eventual #1 seed. We did beat them in one of the 2 times we played them.

Last edited by rees2001 : 03-09-2003 at 05:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2003, 05:37 PM
ahecht's Avatar
ahecht ahecht is offline
'Luzer'
AKA: Zan
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Billerica, MA
Posts: 976
ahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond reputeahecht has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to ahecht Send a message via AIM to ahecht Send a message via Yahoo to ahecht
The problem that FIRST has is that their top priority is that teams have enough time between matches (approx. 1 hour) to repair and refine their robots. The problem is that since your next match is in about an hour, and all the teams you played with have their next match in about an hour, odds are pretty high that you will see at least one of them again in your next match. If FIRST actually went through and made sure that pairings were never repeated, the schedule would actually be less random.

Think of it this way: If you flipped a coin ten times, but wanted to make sure that you never had two heads or two tails in a row, there are only two possible combinations (hththththt and ththththth). However, if you had no checks on the results, there are 1024 possible combinations. Obviously, the first scenerio is much less random.
__________________
Zan Hecht

Scorekeeper: '05 Championship DaVinci Field/'10 WPI Regional
Co-Founder: WPI-EBOT Educational Robotics Program
Alumnus: WPI/Mass Academy Team #190
Alumnus (and founder): Oakwood Robotics Team #992


"Life is an odd numbered problem the answer isn't in the back of the book." Anonymous WPI Student
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Random Pairings??? DragnButt General Forum 11 03-23-2003 10:34 AM
Match List Jack OCCRA 11 01-03-2003 11:33 AM
QUESTION - Random Alliance Pairings archiver 2001 2 06-24-2002 01:03 AM
Sound Levels Measured at the Nationals archiver 1999 8 06-23-2002 09:47 PM
How random is random???? archiver 1999 0 06-23-2002 08:59 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi