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Unread 07-16-2004, 01:01 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Things are starting to get off topic.

So... How do you think the Red/Yellow card system worked?
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Unread 07-16-2004, 01:28 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Refs are human. That's just the way things go. In every sporting event, spelling bee, round of Jeopardy, FIRST match, science fair (I know...FIRST ISN'T A SCIENCE FAIR)--refs are human. I know I've never been a ref...anywhere. I also know that I yell at the TV when somebody has a late hit on Peyton Manning that goes uncalled, I scream at the ref when J. O'Neal (the one that is in basketball because he loves it) is fouled and it isn't called, I talk trash to umpires at baseball games because their strike zone is nowhere NEAR consistent, and (I'll admit it) I yell at refs because I told them that a moveable goal in the ball chute wasn't a penalty and they called it on us or I feel like somebody's being too agressive. However, at the end of the day, most of the time it wasn't a late hit, Jermaine should have been called for a charge and wasn't-whew, the balls are moving 95 miles an hour and I can't see them any better than the ump can and it turns out it was strike three, and you move on because FIRST isn't about the penalty or the un-penalty or whose robot is agressive and who is timid.

The card system worked. Well. It was used properly and (except for when Paul yellow carded Andy during his "Thank you" speech) wasn't abused. I applaud the referees. Kudos. You did the job everybody thinks they can do but few ever really can do.

If we're worried about taking all of this time...why not shorten team introductions? What's more important, knowing why your alliance partner was DQ'd or hearing all 45 of your "main" sponsors announced and asking who's gonna win the match to the crowd? (I love all of these things and FIRST wouldn't be FIRST without them...dont' get me wrong here.) But I think if we're going to have a method in place for dealing with overly agressive robots, we need to give it the time it deserves.

We ran something like 111 matches at IRI. 48 teams * 8 matches each / 4 teams per match is only 96 matches. Some regionals have more teams that 48, some have less. You have to know, if you go to a popular regional, you're going to get fewer matches.

We got behind on Friday because we were moving slow and talking a lot, not because refs were explaining penalties. Saturday (I believe) we were early. And that's when most of the lengthy explaining happened. If the refs are going to talk they need to pick one that is their spokesman. He should be articulate and know what he needs to say and that he needs to get it out. That's what will keep things moving.

All in all, I'm a fan of the lenient version of the card system that was in place at IRI. One that isn't totally objective (like fouls in basketball-6 and you're out), but one that isn't totally subjective either (like baseball-make the ump mad and you're out). It should let the refs be human on two levels.

1.) It lets them make mistakes and have time to fix it.
2.) It lets them have some feeling and care when making calls, while still following procedure.

(this may have been my longest post ever... I love this thread!)
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Unread 07-16-2004, 01:38 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
Things are starting to get off topic.

So... How do you think the Red/Yellow card system worked?
Well John now that you bring it up, I think it worked well.

By issuing yellow cards the ref's were able to warn a team that got one "Hey you are going a little too far there, you don't want to do it again" and most of the time teams listened.

Yellow cards made drivers and coaches more aware of their robot and their actions on the field. Duing one of our strategy planning talks before he finals Team 980's coach said, "Remember we have a yellow card, don't do anything stupid", to their drivers and they were careful not to bring out that Red card.

My team was on the other side of 2 Red Card DQ's. Once in the quarterfinals where it was an obvious DQ situation (Hooked on and couldn't let go) and one where a previous yellow card had been issued and the action occured again, leading to a red card. In both of these cases, and all the other ones that I saw, the card system was used in the way that Andy explained it on Friday morning of IRI. Reasons for the card were explained, and the referees always conferred before issuing one.

There will always be some rules that aren't totally clear and are interpreted different by different people, it is just the way it is. All umpires don't call strikes the same way, all NFL Refs have a different defintion of penalties in their game. But they do have some guidelines to follow, as did Andy and the crew at IRI. They enforced the clear rules, and interpreted all the others to the best of their ability.

The card system test was an excellent idea for IRI.
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  #49   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-16-2004, 01:55 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Q.
During one of our strategy planning talks before he finals Team 980's coach said, "Remember we have a yellow card, don't do anything stupid", to their drivers and they were careful not to bring out that Red card.
I think this single statement, more than any other, proves that this system has it's desired effect.

-John
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Unread 07-16-2004, 02:30 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I agree with Johnny V here, if the card system makes teams calm down with fear of DQ, it's worked. My only qualm with it is there a way to see what teams have had red cards, yellow, etc. My fear is that a team might pair up with another warned team and not know it, then all of a sudden their alliance partners are disabled. It dosn't have to be shown to everyone, but just to the team heads. Well, that's just my opinion, but otherwise, from what I read, this system is probably the best thing for FIRST competitons since live scoring from last year.
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Unread 07-16-2004, 03:09 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

It worked very well, not perfectly, but no system can even come close to perfect. My problems with it have been mentioned over the last couple pages. But all in all, its probably the most effective system used thus far.
And dont have a penalty for aggrressive play. Penalties for spearing, hooking, entanglment, ect. are fine, but not a subjective call such as aggressive play. FIRST has no problem with aggressive, non-damaging play anyway. They encourage defense, and in order to mount an effective d, you need to be at least somewhat aggressive. Body-on-Body contact is perfectly fine in 9 out of 10 cases, and in many cases so is arm to arm, or arm to body, as long as nothing become entangles, hooked, or things like that. Look at, for instance, how 190 used their arm to play def. They used it more or less like a wall to stop the opponent from getting on the bar. But when team C, or a few other team used there arm to spear or knock over other teams, its becomes a penalty. And at IRI the judges called that well.
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Unread 07-19-2004, 12:37 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I think that the card system is good and works well, however, once the criteria is created for what determines a yellow and red card, that needs to be fairly applied to all teams. *I am in no way attempting to discuss the specific call at IRI but solely for example sake, if one team "spears" a robot, every single team with an arm from there on out who "spears" a robot should be given a card, no questions asked. Like I think often times rules and DQ statements are given, but they are not followed up on all the time and where one robot gets called for entanglement (zone zeal) one round, the next round a team entangles and is not called on it or DQ'd. Whatever system is used, it has to be used all the time and there should be no slip-ups. I understand that calls are being made by judges and ref's who are only human, but there have bene evident times at competitions where some rule out on the field has been broken and warrants a DQ and then is not called, even tho it was called earlier in the competition.

just my 2 cents...
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Unread 07-19-2004, 02:32 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
Things are starting to get off topic.

So... How do you think the Red/Yellow card system worked?
again
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Unread 08-02-2004, 12:35 AM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

First let me say, I hope the Card system is adopted into future games, albeit with a few tweaks to be as fair and effective as possible. I think it went over pretty well at IRI and hope we see it again.

Since somebody asked....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner
Does anyone really think that point penalties are confusing? It seems we had point penalties this year for a lot of things - breaking the plane, stepping out of bounds, goal tending, etc. I don't think that was too confusing.
Ok, I'll say it - In FIRST Frenzy, I think having all those possible point penalties was confusing - and I was one of the "rules experts" on the team. I counted or can think of at least 10 or 11 point penalties.. this doesn't include all the DQs or disablement possibilities. I quickly didn't care what the value was (even though in the end I think they were all 10pts), but just tried to be conscious of not doing them.

With this past season's game especially, I think the amount of point penalties was excessive. I'm an advocate for making penalties as simple, but effective as possible. When I see all these suggestions made for numerous/additional point penalties, for whatever various reasons, and they're all different values, call me lazy, but I don't want to work that hard to understand or remember it all...

While I'm not going to come up with the best solution ever, I think that having too many penalties is a problem. I realize maybe not all of them are known or realized at the time of game creation, but it shouldn't take me 10min to explain to a non-FIRSTer (or even a FIRSTer) what all the penalties are and what their point value is, and then think they're going to remember with all the other action going on. And that's in addition to explaining the game.

I'll even risk saying that I'm not sure all the refs knew all the point penalties throughout the season. It got exponentially better as competitions went by, but there were times it was clear not all the penalty rules were known (and I'm speaking only of the misc point penalties, not all the ramming, entangling, etc). And no, I'm certainly not bad-talking the refs. The point is, those making the calls have a LOT to be thinking about.

I'd even venture to say that 40-50% of FIRST participants didn't know all those rules/penalties, for various reasons, which I think is unfortunate.
I think that by having few (because it's hard to imagine having none) point penalties, and an effective system, such as the Red/Yellow Card system, it helps the audience, drive-team, and esp Refs, focus on what's more important. There's many reasons I think this way (i'm not gonna go thru them), and they're more beneficial to everyone than not.

It is possible to design fewer penalties into the game, while not compromising robot design and strategy creativity. Granted, it would be difficult, and I by no means have all the answers. i.e. Crossing into the ball chute could have been eliminated in game design, esp since it was such a safety concern. That's just an example.
Though I refuse to compare robotics to sports, sports don't often change their rules every single year... so they can get away with numerous point penalties, cumulative pts resulting in greater offense, etc.. it's learned over the decades and not re-learned every year. If say basketball had numerous NEW, different penalties every season, it'd make it harder to watch, frustrating... imo...

Anyway, again, I like the Card system for all the reasons others mentioned and hopefully it's brought to on-season competitions.
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