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Unread 11-26-2004, 09:46 AM
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Question Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

I am a fan of six wheeled bots and have been reading the lengthy post here on that topic. I am a fan becuase our team can afford to add a third wheel to each side without the need for a lot of extra engineering. Many of my students however are still fans of tank treads. We have never gone that way, we've only had four or two wheeled bot, because of the expense of pulleys, buying extra timing belts for treads...

My question is, How many teams still design and use tank treads on a competition robot What advantages do you think you have over the latests trend of six wheel robots I still don't see us going with treads and this is a general curiosity of mine.


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Unread 11-26-2004, 09:53 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Hello Mr. Schuetze,

I have seen a lot of 6 wheeled robot and tank thread ones for the past 4 years. both of them are effective. but if i was given a chance i would go with threads, just because of my experience. In reality, tank thread bots has a lot of traction and at the same time, no turning problem.

if you do need to know about tank threads my suggestion would be Contact few teams who has done it for a while. For example, S.P.A.M., Cyber Blue. You can sort their members out on cd by going into the member sectioin and doing an advance search with their team number. good luck...
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Unread 11-26-2004, 09:58 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Andrew,
If you ever saw the current demand of a tank tread turning on carpet, you wouldn't even think of using it. You can't beat the traction moving forward or back but you will eat a battery trying to turn in a single match. Those that work have some method of raising the track so only a small portion is in contact during turns. Even four wheel and six wheel drives suffer from high current demands unless they employ some method of raising some wheels in turns or use omni wheels on some of the wheels (i.e. front wheels).
If you were to tell me that in driving your robot draws less then forty amps total current but you wonder why your battery runs dead in less than two minutes, I would be able to tell you are using tank drive without ever having seen your robot.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 10:10 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
Andrew,
If you ever saw the current demand of a tank tread turning on carpet, you wouldn't even think of using it. You can't beat the traction moving forward or back but you will eat a battery trying to turn in a single match. Those that work have some method of raising the track so only a small portion is in contact during turns. Even four wheel and six wheel drives suffer from high current demands unless they employ some method of raising some wheels in turns or use omni wheels on some of the wheels (i.e. front wheels).
If you were to tell me that in driving your robot draws less then forty amps total current but you wonder why your battery runs dead in less than two minutes, I would be able to tell you are using tank drive without ever having seen your robot.
I have always had this question, it always looks like that a robot with tankthreads on turns so much easier and this past season i have seen teams struggling to turn with wheels on. How is it that the robot looks like its turning to easily and according to Mr. Skierkiewicz when the robot turns (which has threads on) drains battery? I know our battery used to drain very fast every match. I have never worked on a tankthread system before. any advice will be appreciated... thanks.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 10:52 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

One of the most interesting things I saw at nationals last year was a compromise. There were a few teams who ran 6 wheel drive robots, but each wheel had a notch in it to accept a timing belt loop, on each side of the robot one loop ran around all three tires. During normal operation I image the current leaching effect of tank treads wasn't a problem because the treads barely touched thr ground, but when climbing stairs these robots worked as well as ones with a full set of treads.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 11:27 AM
Corey Balint Corey Balint is offline
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

^That would be us, team 25. The treads i personally think were only good for getting up onto the ramp, and were basically pointless and more of a hassle during the matches. If you use the same design that we had this year, make sure you give the treads enough room to move around in. Whenever we took a good solid hit this year, the treads would pop off, and be near useless in helping us move. One round they actually completely prevented us from moving. They also were a problem when hanging, if they came off, we might touch the ground and i would have to get them tangled in the wheels in order for them to not touch.

We are definitely going back to just 6 wheels next year, and would probably never think of using the same set up as last years, unless the game required it. If you can improve upon what we had this year go ahead, but from my personal experience it is pretty darn rough. My suggestion is convince your team on the 6 tire set-up, and if you want any help, contact team 25 members, we have had some good experience with it.
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Last edited by Corey Balint : 11-26-2004 at 11:30 AM.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 11:30 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

980 also had a good 6-wheel drive system.

Last edited by the_mayor : 11-26-2004 at 11:33 AM.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 11:32 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

We have used tank treads the past two years and really like the traction BUT..... We always had a low center wheel to help turn, treads are EXPENSIVE if you get them from Brecoflex, not to mention the lead time on getting your order, lastly there are plenty of pneumatic tires that can easily hold their own against treads. This year most likely we will be going to something other than treads, or maybe not depending on the game. If your teams is going with treads make sure to get your order in immediately at the begining of the season.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 11:43 AM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

We've been using tank treads for about 5 years now, and we plan to continue using them as long as possible. There is no competetion when it comes to traction.

As stated above, many teams have trouble turning with tank treads. This is because instead of 1" of non sticky rubber material per wheel touching the ground, there is 30+ inches of very sticky rubber touching the ground on each tread. We have used a system of idlers with our treads to overcome this. If you look at the picture below from our 2003 bot, you can see how in the middle of the tread there is an idler which lowers the tread about 1/2" from where the hubs would normally touch the ground. If you balance the weight on your bot the right way, you can cut down the surface area of the tread on the carpet from 30" to 1 1/2"



There are many pros to using a system like this. Because of the idlers, the current required to turn is cut down by a large amount. Also, you can turn "on a dime". But my favorite part of the whole system is when you are trying to pull or push something.. it forces the bot to rotate backwards on the idler, and you can put the entire power of your transmission into the pushing/pulling match. (This is much like putting sand bags in the bed of a pickup truck to increase traction.)

If you are interested in this, I am willing and glad to post pictures and diagrams of this system that has worked so well for us.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 12:15 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari
I have always had this question, it always looks like that a robot with tankthreads on turns so much easier and this past season i have seen teams struggling to turn with wheels on. How is it that the robot looks like its turning to easily ...
Arefin,
The simple explanation is that tank treads for all their driving friction also have enormous side friction when turning. The tighter the turn the higher the current. We have seen many robots over the years run near full stall currents on the drive motors. Take one of your treads and drag it sideways to see for yourself the laod you are placing on your drive train.
Take a very close look at Tom's picture above and note that the center wheel is lifting the robot so that only half of the tread is in contact with the floor. If you were able to place this wheel at the center of weight distribution then the turns would only be using a small portion of the tread. Picture the differences in your mind as your robot or Tom's would turn. Then imagine what you are doing to the carpet.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 01:16 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

IMHO, 6 wheel drive will never surpass tank treads, nor vice versa. The main reason why is that each game is different, and as such, each drive system has it's benifits. Until the day FIRST forbids a certain type of drive system they will remain co-equal, although 6 wheel drive is really hot recently.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 01:21 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Wow, these days like every other post on these forums talks about how great six wheel drive is. It's going to be so funny when every robot on the field next year has six wheel drive.
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Unread 11-26-2004, 04:22 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri
We've been using tank treads for about 5 years now, and we plan to continue using them as long as possible. There is no competetion when it comes to traction.

As stated above, many teams have trouble turning with tank treads. This is because instead of 1" of non sticky rubber material per wheel touching the ground, there is 30+ inches of very sticky rubber touching the ground on each tread. We have used a system of idlers with our treads to overcome this. If you look at the picture below from our 2003 bot, you can see how in the middle of the tread there is an idler which lowers the tread about 1/2" from where the hubs would normally touch the ground. If you balance the weight on your bot the right way, you can cut down the surface area of the tread on the carpet from 30" to 1 1/2"



There are many pros to using a system like this. Because of the idlers, the current required to turn is cut down by a large amount. Also, you can turn "on a dime". But my favorite part of the whole system is when you are trying to pull or push something.. it forces the bot to rotate backwards on the idler, and you can put the entire power of your transmission into the pushing/pulling match. (This is much like putting sand bags in the bed of a pickup truck to increase traction.)

If you are interested in this, I am willing and glad to post pictures and diagrams of this system that has worked so well for us.
I love to see some more pictures of those treads. They look really impresive. What width belts do you use? are they from Brecoflex?

Thanks,
Ben Van Selous
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Unread 11-27-2004, 04:42 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

With the advent of pneumatic tires in the competition, wheeled robots are now competitive with treaded designs when it comes to traction. I say competitive, not superior. Some timing belt backings can deliver a coefficient of traction of 2.0. That means the pulling force is twice the weight of the robot. I know that this is true because we measured it many times with our highest traction robot, Fluffy. They are competitive because they are more simple to design and build.

As you may have noticed in the past years, those teams with pneumatic tires have a hard time (harder than properly designed treaded systems) turning. The 4-wheel drive systems bounce around like Mexican jumping beans. It is quite fun to watch.

The trick to making any high traction configuration turn is to have what we have termed a "boogie" wheel midway between the front and back rollers on the treaded system. This boogie wheel is a little bit lower than the front and rear rollers. What this does is roughly cut you turning moments in half since you are supporting the robot on the boogie wheel and either the front or rear roller. In a 6-wheel configuration, just lower your center wheel a little bit.

Therefore, I would say, no 6-wheeled designs have not surpassed tank treads in terms of traction. But they can give them a good run.
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Unread 11-28-2004, 01:09 PM
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Re: Has 6 wheeled designs surpased tank treads

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben.V.293
I love to see some more pictures of those treads. They look really impresive. What width belts do you use? are they from Brecoflex?

Thanks,
Ben Van Selous
I dont think I have any good pictures of them on my computer, so I will take some at the next team meeting on Tuesday and post them then.
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