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Unread 01-11-2006, 11:22 AM
Nuts4FIRST Nuts4FIRST is offline
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Question Ball Recirculation Question

Can balls from both the center and corner goals really be returned to the field by the human players?

My current interpretation is that only balls scored in the center goal can be touched by the human players and returned to the field ONLY IF you interpret the words “chute” and “ball return” to be synonymous. Balls in the corner goals are kept there until the end of the match, there is no "exit chute" that returns the balls to the human player.

Look carefully at the semantics of these rules.

Take a look at rule G05. It states...

<G05> “In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute”... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER."
The only goal that has some thing that resembles a chute is the center goal. The corner goals have no “chute” that returns the ball to the human player.

If you look at rule 3.4.2 and 3.4.3 the word “chute” is not used. However one could conceive that the words “ball return” and “pipe” imply a “chute” mechanism.

3.4.2 Ball Returns
A Ball Return is located at the lower edge of each Center Goal, to guide scored balls safely down to the player stations for retrieval by the Human Players. The Ball Return is a section of 9 inch diameter corrugated plastic pipe through which the balls descend from an opening in the bottom of the Center Goal.

3.4.3 Ball Corrals
A Ball Corral is located at the ends of the Alliance Station Wall to restrain any balls that enter through the Corner Goals. The Ball Corral covers a four-by-four foot area. The side walls of the Ball Corral are three feet tall and constructed of square aluminum tube and polycarbonate. The back wall of the Ball Corral is of similar construction, except it is only 20 inches tall to permit easy retrieval of balls from the interior of the
corral.
Yes, the ball corrals at the corners do have an opening at the back, but no “chute”. May the HP reach into this opening? Where is that stated?

I can appreciate the intention of the game design but the rules are not explicitly written to match one’s interpretation. Perhaps the intention of the game design was to only allow balls from the center goal to be returned to the field. Thus, making it attractive to have a strategy that shoots balls; creating an exciting game from the audience’s perspective.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 11:29 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

The intent is that balls scored in any goal can be returned to the field. Don't worry so much about the wording of the rules but the intent of the rules.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 11:31 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Wow. FIRST lawyerism to make the game harder to play and make it harder to score?
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Unread 01-11-2006, 11:33 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Side goals:
As soon as one of your balls passes through either of the side "mouse hole" goals, it gets scored one (1) point for your alliance, but that ball (now in the corral box) become property of the opposing alliance and ANY of their 12 people can reach into the corral(s) and use the ball(s) to relaod their robots and/or the three human players can use those balls to manually shoot over the wall into either side goal at YOUR end of the court. The rest of their alliance can ONLY touch/pass-around balls, not shoot over the wall.

Center Goal:
As soon as one of your balls passes down the chute for THEIR center goal, you get credit for three (3) points, but they then can retrieve the ball and do the same thing with it as paragraph #1 above.

The animation clearly shows left and right-hand human players reaching down into the corral(s) to re-feed robots and/or shoot over the wall.

SO.....Shoot your ammo wisely!
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Last edited by dhitchco : 01-11-2006 at 11:35 AM.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 11:55 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

every year the rules demonstrate just how difficult technical writing really is.

Its one thing for a group to come up with the rules, so they know exactly what is allowed

its much more difficult to write those rules down, so that everyone who reads them will clearly understand the intent and restrictions.

For example, if you took the rule in the 1st post of this thread literally, then only balls returned to the field by the opposing alliance can be used to score points (thats what it says).

If taken literally that would mean each ball must be tracked by the refs, and you can only score points with balls returned by your opponent, not with balls you took from your side of the field!

(obviously, thats not what they meant to say, but there it is! )

Quote:
<G05> “In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute”... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER."

Last edited by KenWittlief : 01-11-2006 at 11:57 AM.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Basically, as long as the balls are within the alliance station, and the human player doesnt leave the alliance station, any balls within the station are up for grabs, meaning the corner goals, the garbage can, and on the floor.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 01:39 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
For example, if you took the rule in the 1st post of this thread literally, then only balls returned to the field by the opposing alliance can be used to score points (thats what it says).
It does not read that way at all, Ken. It says that a ball is scored when it passes down the chute and cannot be scored again until it is placed back in play by the opposing alliance's human player. It speaks singularly of one ball, not of all balls. It is true that any single ball that is scored must be returned to play by the opposing alliance before it may be scored again.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 02:20 PM
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhitchco
Side goals:
As soon as one of your balls passes through either of the side "mouse hole" goals, it gets scored one (1) point for your alliance, but that ball (now in the corral box) become property of the opposing alliance and ANY of their 12 people can reach into the corral(s) and use the ball(s) to relaod their robots and/or the three human players can use those balls to manually shoot over the wall into either side goal at YOUR end of the court. The rest of their alliance can ONLY touch/pass-around balls, not shoot over the wall.
That's not entirely true. The Human Players are the only ones allowed to have balls enter play. Seeing as the robots are "in play" and on the field, only the human player is allowed to give balls to the robots. This also being, the only way to get balls to the robot is over the wall.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 02:40 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Oops,

Lil Lavery is right. The 12 people can toss balls back and forth to each other all day long, but ONLY the three designated human players can toss the balls over the wall.

a) How do you identify the three human players?
b) Assume you can't "substitute" human players from drivers during a match; what if a HP get's side-lined or falls down or whatever.
c) What happens if any of the 12 people in the station leave the "box" of the station?
d) What happens if a player falls out of the box (with or without a ball in his/her hands)?


Hey, what happens if the human players get mad at a driver and start to pummel him/her with balls BEHIND the glass wall (funny!)
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Unread 01-11-2006, 02:52 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhitchco
c) What happens if any of the 12 people in the station leave the "box" of the station?
d) What happens if a player falls out of the box (with or without a ball in his/her hands)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by <G33>
HUMAN PLAYER Shooting Zone - The HUMAN PLAYER must remain behind the STARTING LINE and within the ALLIANCE ZONE when they are entering a ball onto the field. Each violation will result in a 5-point penalty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by <G34>
HUMAN PLAYER/COACH/DRIVER Out of ZONE - All team members must stay within their ALLIANCE ZONE during the match. Each violation will result in a 5-point penalty.
If any player removes themselves from the zone its a 5 point penalty. If the human player isn't in the zone, and behind the white line and throws a ball into play its a 5 point penalty.
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Unread 01-11-2006, 04:50 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuts4FIRST
My current interpretation is that only balls scored in the center goal can be touched by the human players and returned to the field ONLY IF you interpret the words “chute” and “ball return” to be synonymous. Balls in the corner goals are kept there until the end of the match, there is no "exit chute" that returns the balls to the human player.
Technically, the "chute" for the corner goals is the sloped ramp on the interior of the Ball Corral in each corner, leading from the goal hole down to the floor. But even without that specific detail, it is clear that the Human Players are able to retrieve balls from the Ball Corral and enter them into play. Given the game animation, the game demonstration shown during kick-off, the game description, and the manual narrative, this should be evident to all those concerned.

Quote:
<edit/delete>
OK, I was about to go off on a tear using the original post as a perfect example of the difficulty in writing clear, unambiguous language that effectively communicates an idea without requiring prose the length of a dissertation. But I counted to 42 decided to just leave it this way:

Please, folks, just lighten up and apply a judicious amount of common sense to these discussions. Most of these concerns really are easily resolved by applying Occam's Razor. If they cannot be so resolved, then save them up and ask the question on the FIRST Q&A system as soon as it comes back up (hopefully, just a little while longer...). Now repeat after me: it is just a game. It is just a game. It is just a game...

-dave
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Unread 01-12-2006, 10:37 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Good comments by Dave,

I think that some of the fun in bantering about "what-if" scenarios is OK. Any REAL serious questions about the rules MUST be posted by each team's offical representative via the FIRST Q&A system.

If a rule is to be clarified, it will be done so via the official updates.

But, just as the case in the real world, EVERYTHING that has ever been written (including the US constitution) is up for "interpretation".

So, as long as the conversations are kept amicable and under the umbrella of philisophical and educational "gracious professionalism", then let the knowledge and information flow freely.
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Unread 01-12-2006, 11:55 AM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
It does not read that way at all, Ken. It says that a ball is scored when it passes down the chute and cannot be scored again until it is placed back in play by the opposing alliance's human player. It speaks singularly of one ball, not of all balls. It is true that any single ball that is scored must be returned to play by the opposing alliance before it may be scored again.
yes, so any balls returned to the field by MY alliance cannot be scored by my team, because my alliance is not the 'opposing alliance'.

I know thats not what they mean - Im only trying to point out that you have to take all the information FIRST provides (the kickoff demonstration of the game, the rules video anime...) and understand what was intended

and to send the lawyers home.
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Unread 01-12-2006, 01:30 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
yes, so any balls returned to the field by MY alliance cannot be scored by my team, because my alliance is not the 'opposing alliance'.

I know thats not what they mean...
Nor is it what they say, Ken.

I don't know why what you're reading isn't what is written, but that's what you're doing. <G05> doesn't say anything about who can score a ball that's been entered onto the field. It simply -- and clearly -- says that after your alliance scores a ball, that ball cannot be scored again until the opposing alliance returns it to play.
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Unread 01-12-2006, 02:19 PM
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Re: Ball Recirculation Question

really?! ok

<G05> “In order for a ball (what ball, mine or theirs? doenst say)

to score, (score for who?, us or them, it doesnt say)

it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute” (which goal? it doesnt say)

... “it cannot score again until it is entered onto the field by the opposing ALLIANCE’s HUMAN PLAYER." (now they say "the opposing allinance" - not either alliance - not my alliance").

the words you added to the rule "after your alliance scores a ball" are not in the rule :^)

again, Im not disagreeing with the intent of the rule. A while back I had to have some very simple testing instructions translated to japanese. To make sure they were correctly translated I had the japanese translated back into english.

one step was: Turn power off. Turn power on. (ie, cycle the power)

what I got back was: Revolution gives power (sounds somewhat subversive!)

I tried rephrasing the english and went through the process again, and got back: Energy hi, energy far.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 01-12-2006 at 02:37 PM.
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