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Unread 03-26-2006, 09:08 AM
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The Ugliest Trend Yet

Chiefdelphi is a great resource for all of FIRST to use over the years and has grown into a community that has taken a life of it's own. It has provided answers for those who needed it and advice for those who seek it. It is a place to get information about teams and robots that you would not be able to get on the general FIRST site and is a great place to meet up with friends and make new ones.
There has always been controversy because of how tightly moderated the page is (which I think has gotten much better than it used to be. They let alot more go than they used to). Believe me I have been to alot of message boards that are not as tightly moderated, If at all (my first message board the lead moderator said it would be more cost effective if he didn't moderate the page at all and all hell broke out after that. I nearly left when someone had the nerve to create a racist joke thread. I had never been so broken hearted over something done over the internet in my life and I surfed the wretched page of Stormwatch for a school paper before). This place had been relatively free of trolls over the years.
Ever since Silencenomore graced these pages I have noticed a dark turn for the worst that has been haunting these pages recently, where actual trolling occurs. Team members now post anonymously separate from their team and use this freedom to now post vicious accusations and rants against other teams for perceived wrongs or just use it to be rude and obnoxious.
This is a resource that everyone in FIRST can use and enjoy not just to post here but hundreds more just come by and read what has been posted. It just sad that alot of selfish individuals have decided to come here to start trouble because they think that this page is their toilet to dump their grievances against other teams and individuals in FIRST and don't even have the courage to do so with thier team mentioned with them because not only would their team suffer the consequences of their actions but they would most likely be dealt with for what they have done.
What's the solution? I don't know if there is one and what really disturbs me is it can only get worse (much worse, trust me on that) and the luster on the CD could be lost forever and that is truly a sad thing indeed.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 10:17 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

I looked up that user name and like you Ed I am appalled at what has been written . This is not a radical political forum. It is a place for kids to go and have fun with robotics. There is no room for hate mongering here.

I think the CD management should not allow users that fail to identify with a team. If they are alumni they have past teams to identify with. If they are new to FIRST they should develop a relationship with a team and be taught gracious professionalism before they are allowed to register.

At least if they have a team association there would be a contact person who could make them accountable. If these bozos dont have the courage to identify themselves and be accountable for their actions they are no more than losers and not worth having the right to post here.

WC
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Unread 03-26-2006, 10:29 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

I have reported this user's postings in the past.
I think a "Three strike and you're out" rule should apply.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 10:29 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne C.
I looked up that user name and like you Ed I am appalled at what has been written . This is not a radical political forum. It is a place for kids to go and have fun with robotics. There is no room for hate mongering here.

I think the CD management should not allow users that fail to identify with a team. If they are alumni they have past teams to identify with. If they are new to FIRST they should develop a relationship with a team and be taught gracious professionalism before they are allowed to register.

At least if they have a team association there would be a contact person who could make them accountable. If these bozos dont have the courage to identify themselves and be accountable for their actions they are no more than losers and not worth having the right to post here.

WC
Actually compared to the people who are posting anonymously now and calling out teams for supposed transactions that may or may not have happened. Silencenomore was just really obnoxious but not as directly hurtful to other FIRST teams. To just call out other FIRST teams and make accusation against them without proof not only discredits them for what they have done recently but ever. Especially when these fools probably haven't put in anywhere near the time and effort into the FIRST community that they have.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 10:31 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

I am only relatively new and was not here during the time that SilenceNoMore was around these threads. I have, however, noticed that sometimes, there are radical and accusative posts and I applaud those who are mature about it and try to work around it.

But, as Koko Ed said, it's not exactly getting better and can get worse. Since this is not a technical problem, I don't think we can provide a technical solution. Rather, this is an ethical problem.

Thus, we must take it upon ourselves to find a way to keep these forums clean. This means that if we find a slightly biased post, we need to find a way to contact them to let them know that their post isn't appreciated here. I'm not saying this will work -- but that is not in our hands. Our actions are in our hands and if we find something that is un-GP or just plain wrong, we should let them know by messaging them and letting them know.

I'm not saying we should put salt on a wound -- we need to make sure when we let others know about their posts that we don't return the rude attitude. There are other ways to inform someone about their post without making crude remarks (two wrongs don't make a right) and although they might not seem as effective, they are.

That's my take on it. We keep "values" in society by influencing each other and cd is kind of like a society. We may have technological barriers but then again, if need be, we can use technological means to get rid of these problems as well. I've been to other forums in the past but this is the only one I have actually stuck with because of the positive and helpful atmosphere. Let's keep it that way.

Nice post Koko Ed =)

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Unread 03-26-2006, 10:52 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
It just sad that alot of selfish individuals have decided to come here to start trouble because they think that this page is their toilet to dump their grievances against other teams and individuals in FIRST and don't even have the courage to do so with thier team mentioned with them because not only would their team suffer the consequences of their actions but they would most likely be dealt with for what they have done.
What's the solution? I don't know if there is one and what really disturbs me is it can only get worse (much worse, trust me on that) and the luster on the CD could be lost forever and that is truly a sad thing indeed.

Couldn't agree with you more Ed - last week there was a similar instance at another regional, and I posted the below, which I think applies to the thread you've started:


I wish CD had a rule that all registered users had to identify themselves to post - it would certainly eliminate most (not all) of the petty and slanderous posts made on this forum. As others have pointed out - it is a private forum, they can run it however they want, they do (and should) make rules for their forum, and if you/I/we don't like it, then don't come on the forum. If they want to moderate/delete posts they don't feel are constructive or gracious, all the power to them.

As a general rule, I know that most people I speak to in FIRST who frequent Chief Delphi do not put much stock in statements/comments/slander made by people anonymously. When I see someone make an anonymous post which flames/insults/slanders another team or person - I (and I think many) associate one, some or all of the following with the post and the person making it:

pettiness, frustration, anger, resentment, jealousy, poor sportsmanship, ignorance, cowardice, doesn't handle losing well, in most cases doesn't really know anything of substance about the person or team they are talking about, and their post is just assumptions and speculations they "think" are true but actually aren't (or flat out attacks and/or lies they know aren't true but are making because they can do so anonymously).

This is obviously about many posts over the years on CD where people let their personal issues (see above list) cloud their objectivity, and the result is that they put down an entire team which NEVER deserves it. If you have a problem with a person or a few people on a team, fine. Don't discredit all the students and mentors on that team who put so much time, effort and passion into their program.

My opinion - if you feel you have something of value to say, something important, something factual, and something informative to share with the community - then do so with some conviction and be honest about who you are and what your bias/agenda/opinion might be. Everyone on this forum has opinions and everyone at some point disagrees greatly with what others think/say - that's great in a constructive and respectful atmosphere - we can certainly agree to disagree and still share our views. But stand up for your views and make them YOURS if you are going to post them, not some anonymous view you don't have to take credit for.

sorry for the soap box - just hate to see posts try to discredit the accomplishments and hard work of any teams, and especially the students on those teams.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:01 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Most of the other people I've seen racking up negative rep tend to have somewhat of a point but say it in the wrong way. That was just incredible, Dean Kamen trying to subvert the American economy? As for the whole issue, I haven't seen much of this, but that could be because I spend most of my time in the technical forums where it's seems that less of this occurs. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:10 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort
Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Most of the other people I've seen racking up negative rep tend to have somewhat of a point but say it in the wrong way. That was just incredible, Dean Kamen trying to subvert the American economy? As for the whole issue, I haven't seen much of this, but that could be because I spend most of my time in the technical forums where it's seems that less of this occurs. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.
The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:21 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Luke, I don't think a forum on CD where people can post whatever bile they want to spew would really futher the forum's purpose as a place for teams to spread FIRST's message, help other teams, etc. There isn't anything positive that could come out of a forum like that, save for the person spewing the bile. We'd be better off suggesting to them that they type up their rants in notepad, print them out, and rip them to tiny shreds to work out their obvious anger.

At any rate, I don't know that there are many good technical solutions to anonymous posting. Forcing someone to identify with a team will just make people pick teams at random. And it's not like you can make people send Brandon a photo id so they can get an account. Worse, any sort of lengthy verification process we make people go through will just make it tougher on people coming here cause they need help quickly. Banning and blocking will just force the posters to start multiple new accounts, though it might give them a time out to think about what they've said. About the best solution I can think of would be something akin to AOL's warning system where one user can warn another and restrict the rate they can post at. This has problems as well, but any purely techincal solution is going to have lots of problems.

I think we just have to deal with the fact that anonymity happens on the internet, and trolls are a fact of life. And make it abundantly clear to said trolls that they really aren't FIRST or CD material if they can think such things about their fellow teams.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
Forcing someone to identify with a team will just make people pick teams at random. And it's not like you can make people send Brandon a photo id so they can get an account. Worse, any sort of lengthy verification process we make people go through will just make it tougher on people coming here cause they need help quickly.
He has a point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
bout the best solution I can think of would be something akin to AOL's warning system where one user can warn another and restrict the rate they can post at.
I like the warning system idea but it kind of mirrors the point of the rep system. Also, that privelege can be misused also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
This has problems as well, but any purely techincal solution is going to have lots of problems.
well said.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:32 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.
That's just sick.

In any case, I see trolling as a cost of having an open forum. I would venture a guess that trolls rear their heads occasionally in almost every online community, and there's no reason why a FIRST robotics forum should be any different in that respect. The rep points system generally prevents trolls from having a significant impact on the perception of the teams or individuals being trolled. Most of what is written here is productive.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw293
That's just sick.

In any case, I see trolling as a cost of having an open forum. I would venture a guess that trolls rear their heads occasionally in almost every online community, and there's no reason why a FIRST robotics forum should be any different in that respect. The rep points system generally prevents trolls from having a significant impact on the perception of the teams or individuals being trolled. Most of what is written here is productive.
Chiefdelphi is an oasis in the harsh desert of the internet.
The internet is the last "wild frontier" and a pretty mean place to be. You just have to make the choice of how you wish to conduct yourself and how you want to take things really. As it has been said:No one can really make you feel inferior without your consent.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:41 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

I agree with all of you. Every forum has some trolls, but the admins and users here at ChiefDelphi do a great job banning them/deleting posts when the trolls come around. If you find a post offensive, use the report feature and the admins will take care of it!
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:46 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
The worst thing I have ever heard was a troll telling a friend of mine on another page who had previously tried to kill herself before that "Next time you try to kill yourself use a gun. It'll make it more memorable." I reproted them and got them banned.
That is absolutely horrible. I wish that more could be done than just banning him from the website... Something like a beating with a bamboo cane.

More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?
Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly.
I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:50 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukevanoort
Those Silencenomore posts were appalling, but after a while they became darkly funny. I'm amazed anybody would say that sort of stuff in a public forum. Maybe the solution isn't to restrict more, but make a anonymous shot out where you can just say "I hate team 666" (<- not a real team) it could be a moderated one to keep people from being really vulgar or specific, so they couldn't say "Team 666's driver is a stupid #@&$ and %#@$ moron." However, I may just be nuts and this would make the problem worse,
I don't know.
I remember when SilenceNoMore joined and started causing a ruckus around here. SNM was an outspoken alter ego of another user on here and after several people figured out who it was they quit posting under the SNM user name and went back to thier older one with a team designation.

This isn't always the case and you will get people registering here just to cause problems whether they're on a team or not. The only way in reality to handle them is to deal with them as they happen. Banning someone outright because they don't have a current or past team could be hurtful to this forum. As an example, SkywayWheels is a username on here and they are you guessed it.........Skyway Wheels, a supporter and KOP supplier to FIRST. They are not, and have never been, on any team. They come on here to listen to us and help us when needed. If being on a team or being an alumini was a requirement then they wouldn't belong here. There are others similar to Skyway that are on here and contribute to this forum.

Now for my personal opinion. Having a forum solely for bashing other teams goes against what FIRST is about and this forum. I can see this forum becoming a major headache for the Mods. Remember that each Mod is an individual and when you get something that is borderline one Mod may allow it or not edit it as much as another. While you may think a whole team is bad that isn't generally the case. Usually it's one or two members that cause problems. They can be dealt with on a "as needed basis". Same thing I've unfortunately had to do as a mentor at times.

Bashing a whole team is excessive, not neccesary and will only open another can of worms. Second of all, having guests and sponsors seeing this on a open forum isn't good PR let alone GP.
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2006 Maryland Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technology" award
2006 Connecticut General Motor's Industrial Design award
2005 Finalists-----------New Jersey (along with our alliances again, 56 & 303)
2005 WINNERS of the Radio Shack Innovation in Control Award (not once, but twice! )
2004 WINNERS ------ Johnson & Johnson Mid-Atlantic Regional (also thanks to our alliances 56 & 303)
2004 General Motors Industrial Design Award Winners
2004 Archimedes Quarterfinalists (also thanks to our alliances 121 & 386)

NEMO _________ NonEngineering Mentor Organization
"Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot!" - author unknown
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