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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-26-2006, 11:06 AM
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

about 2,000 years ago it was written that a persons true character is revealed when they are tested by fire.

When something bad happens to you, or you go through a difficult ordeal, then the way that YOU respond reveals your true nature. Its easy to be nice when everything is going your way. When trouble comes, then we get to see whats on the inside.

The ironic part about this, the thing that pushed you over the edge may have been real, or it may have been a misunderstanding on your part. But when you blow up and lose your cool infront of others, that is 100% the real you.

The original misunderstanding will get cleared up, but the way other people see you will be altered forever.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:07 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
That is absolutely horrible. I wish that more could be done than just banning him from the website... Something like a beating with a bamboo kane.

More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?
Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly.
I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?
I did the same thing within the first few weeks after I joined and was quite puzzled too. As to the bashing forum, you guys have good points, that's a bad idea. Here's another one (not a bad one, hopefully, but another idea) how about venting in another manner? With a computer. I don't know how many of you used the Dr S BATESO utility that came with SoundBlaster about ten years ago, but it said a few one line responses, and was very useful for venting anger. I know there are several Java applets that do this floating around, you could just get on it and start venting your anger, without troubling anybody. And, since many bad decisions are made under pressure, in the heat of the moment, this could help. I relative of mine used to teach in a prison and, according to her, most of the murderers were normal people who happened to get drunk, or really really angry and a gun was nearby. On CD that gun is the "New Thread" or "Post Reply" buttons. Since we can't remove the gun, giving a person a method to let off that steam makes them less likely to use it in a bad manner.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:07 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Allow me to be very optimistic.

I believe that for every individual on this forum that posts a nasty comment about another team or starts a nasty thread, there is a huge crowd of good, good people who disapprove of that. Just look at this thread for evidence.

These "nasty posters" teach by bad example. Many people I've introduced to Chief see these posters and realize that they are an example of what not to do, of how to not behave. They will always be here, but I believe Chief Delphi users will moderate them. On this forum there are many young posters, still high schoolers, who already try to help moderate bad behavior.

Teach by example. Bring friends who will respect the rules, the mission, the idea of what CD is. There will always be trolls, but the good people will stick around more than the trolls will.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 11:52 AM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
Upon seeing the subject of this thread, I automatically went to the members section and sorted them be rep, I then went to the end of the list. The person's name was Amateurrobotguy. I read all 86 of his post summaries, and didn't see anything too trollish. If there was something in an unabridged post of his, please point it out to me. I also noticed that there were a ton of people with red bars who, when I read their posts, had said nothing to offend anyone openly.
Sometimes, a user will post a thread that is way off-topic, offensive, or just not allowed. If that thread is deleted (and in the case of Amateurrobotguy, they were) it will no longer show up on post list you look at on their profile. Also, sometimes people will give negative rep for offensive things in signitures (like one current sig that says, "Admit it; we all want to sabatoge the other teams' robots.") and since we can't see old sigs, there might have been something there, too.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 12:40 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

It was once said by Ricky Quinones that "that Martus character always has a way to take care of them."

If you see a post that is Just Plain Wrong, report it. Fire off a red dot, if you think it's deserving. Just don't let those with less-than-ideal goals scare you off--a loss of veteran knowledge, particularly on a site like this, would be devastating. (We have to have the old-timers around, after all--those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. And I don't mean HIST 101, either.)
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Unread 03-26-2006, 12:54 PM
114Klutz 114Klutz is offline
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

I'll take the more pessimistic side of this.

The internet is a microcosm of the world. Just like the real world - the anonymity provided by the internet can often be either used or abused.

In the real world - anonymity has often allowed people to post legimate grumbles without the threat of prosecution. (Letter of Junius, or Candide), yet it also provides an open method for libel and slander.

However, unlike the real world, ChiefDelphi doesn't exactly prosecute it's users. At most, a thread is deleted, and negative rep points are given. Commissars don't exactly barge in, the poster to never be seen again.

ChiefDelphi has always maintained an friendly and open atmosphere - and there is no need for anonymity here. If posters were forced to associate with a team(who's team captain or other such contact would vouch), then the number of flamebait posts and trolls would decrease.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 01:00 PM
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

We (Chief Delphi leaders) try and review how things went and where improvements could be made in managing this website on a regular basis.
We rely on Brandon to guide us on the technical related stuff, and Mike M and I try to make sure the guidelines, rules, underlying message, and mission still make sense.

Past problems, are discussed along with potential solutions.

Posting annon (without being associated with a team#) has been discussed numerous times over the years.

Many students that graduate and move on to college and beyond, are still interested in communicating with the rest of the FIRST community - yet don't really feel that they should be identified with their past team(s).

We respect that and believe the value and insight that these mentors can bring to this community, along with parents, teachers, and coaches no longer associated with a team, is well worth the risk of not requiring a team# association.

We have discussed using a non-FIRST team # to represent this growing faction in the FIRST community - we will need to review this again to see if it is time to ask that group to modify their team# to something like "FIRST Supporter" or "CD community member", to distinguish between themselves from those that want to be viewed as having association with "No Team".

I hope this helps everyone understand better that we DO want the best for this website community and we welcome suggestions that help us manage it for the betterment of FIRST.

We also hope this ugly trend diminshes and goes away - keep up the good work moderators.

Mike Aubry
Engineering Team Leader

Last edited by meaubry : 03-26-2006 at 01:05 PM.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody C
More on the topic, however... What is considered a troll?

I guess what i am asking is:
When you see red rep bars do you automatically think "he's a troll"?
I've always considered a troll to be a "non-contributing member" of the community. There are many folks on CD who read, but never post, to these boards. I've never found that to be a problem. I've even been contacted by a "temporary troll", who requested a computer card I offered to Sanddrag a while back. (I sent the card along, because I had no use for it, but it was apparent he picked up the offer by using Google to search for that specific card. He obviously had no team or interest in FIRST.) Once again, not a real problem.

It's the destructive identities, that are usually anonymous, that really attack what this community represents. I do not consider these folks as trolls, but as antagonistic opportunists. They do not troll the boards silently, but they post quite vividly items that are outside the scope of the forum -- FIRST and robotics. The identities are not always anonymous anymore though, some are indeed openly affiliated with teams. It may be that the team mentors do not read CD, or that they ignore the content of offensive postings from their teams.

I have noticed, that in recent years, volatile threads tend to become IM-like, in that accusations, suggestions, and counter-accusations are made in such a rapid-fire mode that it is highly apparent that the initiator has no interest in understanding the situation, just a desire to vent. They barely allow themselves time to read a post, much less even think about it, before they are typing in a response that doesn't add anything but merely reiterates their initial posting. There is no desire for discussion, just a platform to insult and attack another team. Usually it happens so quickly that the thread is closed before the majority of the community has an opportunity to even read it.

Today, there was a thread posted for 1 hour and 20 minutes before it was closed with the 28th post. If you missed it (because you were sleeping), the thread began at about 1:00 AM local time, and was closed just after 2:15 AM. I invite you to read through it, and think about a team who should be enjoying and celebrating a regional victory, instead having to deal with the attacks and criticism that for some reason they are "unworthy". This seems to have become a more common thread on CD during the past few years. While the success of teams are celebrated and cheered at the venues, there are a few individuals who choose to tarnish teams and their successes here on CD afterwards.

It is sad when the robots do not perform as we designed them. It is sadder still, when they perform well, but they are not victorious. However, it is most saddening when they win at a competition, and competitors are unwilling to acknowledge the teamwork and good fortune of the alliance.

To Team #4 and all FIRST teams:
Celebrate your teams success, and salute the success of your competitors!
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Unread 03-26-2006, 01:11 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

As FIRST continues to grow, so does the variety and diversity of the people using these forums. It isn't unreasonable to expect that the number of problematic posters will increase with the whole membership. I don't think we're seeing a trend, but rather a consequence of growth.

That said, I'd like to discourage the continued discussion of individual users who may have acted in bad taste. That is, in some ways, no better than much of the behavior you're concerned about in the first place.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 01:54 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

[Somewhat OFFTOPIC]
I find it somewhat amusing as I look through the offtopic discussion and see multiple spam topics littering the page. I never have the privilege of reporting or even viewing any of these topics as they are always taken care of quickly. Now... the point I'm trying to make here is that the moderators on this forum do an extraordinary job. I have never seen a forum better moderated than this one. Bad threads are closed in a timely manner. But the ones that are insightful, yet accusations are made in, are left open for various amounts of time to allow us to learn from them and opinions can be thrown around.

-------------------

I don't mind these "trolls" as long as they provide substantial evidence backing their claims. The only thing I ask is that the complaining team member provide their team name and number.

My $0.02.

I'm glad Koko Ed brought this topic up.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 01:58 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

SNM is a very disturbing member indeed if you just take a quick look at his 32 posts. But, look through the dirt, dust off his posts, and you may come to understand as I have that he just couldn't put his very credible opinion out there in a reasonable way. Either because of a lack of education, knowledge, or just lack of ambition to put real thought into it.

In short, SNM is an unfortunate case of how a lack of education and/or lack of thought can make your outward appearance look miserable.

On that note, politics should be able to continue in a moderated fashion on CD.

Also, it should be told to all incoming users, unknown or identified, that it is recommended to post with thought, general intelligence, and overall care, NOT with sudden outbursts of rebellion or propaganda.

Users of this forum should at least have knowledge of all three sides of any issue: the good, the bad, and the unknown. This includes FIRST. The CD forum should be exactly that, a forum. Not a group of people under a trance who just talk about how great FIRST is, etc. etc. In fact, people critical of FIRST on these forums, or at the very least constructively critical, give us, and FIRST administrators, the other side that we should wisely consider. To sum up, be open, not just what you think to be open, but really open minded. Find those closed doors in your heads and unlock them. It will really help.

Finally, remember that even though we all put a lot of time and effort into our endeavors with FIRST, it is incredibly important to realize that there are certainly no garuntees in how everything will turn out. In any case, not everyone is going to be happy, not everyone will be supportive. Work at your own reputational and emotional risk.

To answer Koko's question on whether or not there is a solution, it's rather simple. Critical people like SNM, though very appaling, have thoughts and ideas that we can all take a moment to consider and act upon. Don't call members like them trolls either. They're human beings just like the rest of us, and deserve an equal amount of respect, for we all have errors, and challenges to overcome. If we work together, and take the ciriticism like food, and eat it, FIRST will grow in a much more respectable way, and with less conspiracy. It will be a solid, strong, and most importantly honest organization that has no 'I' in it's framework. CD will grow along with FIRST in this sense.

I hope I wasn't too confusing.

-Joe

PS: Censorship, as demonstrated in Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451, just doesn't work.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 02:54 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

[Slightly Offtopic] One thing that's always bugged me is the Rep system. I've had a great experience with it, but not everyone has. I've seen a number of cases where someone has posted on a sensitive topic and just didn't word it delicately enough. 100 negative reps later, they come back and attempt to fix it. However, 100 negative reps are very upsetting, and often ends up angering the user more. I make two propositions:

1) Allow a maximum of 5 or 10 negative reps PER POST. This will get the point across well enough, but ensures that it is not too damaging. It also means that "instigators" (those who make multiple offending posts) can still be penalized heavily, hopefully notifying them that their conduct is unacceptable. Also, if someone receives the maximum negative reps for a post, they should be notified similar Billfred's suggestion in this thread


2) If someone has recieved more than a specified number (like 30 or 40) negative reps in the past 24 hours, their account is temporarily suspended (eg. for the next 24 hours). This makes it so that they have time to "cool off", and could possibly mitigate some of the "hot" threads we see. Multiple temporary bans could be grounds for a longer term ban and/or account deletion. Because of the way the current rep system works, it should be fairly hard to abuse this (it would require a lot of offended peple to cause a temporary ban).

Please note that these suggestions have not been fully thought through, and probably have many problems. They may have already been suggested in one way or another. They're just some ideas for preventing some problems that i've seen lately. [/Slightly Offtopic]
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Unread 03-26-2006, 03:13 PM
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

the term 'troll' is a spin-off of a method of fishing. You pull a piece of bait on a hook behind a slow moving boat, trying to get a fish to bite: Trolling.

Trolling on a website is throwing out some comment that you know will start an argument or flame war. The troll doesn't really care anything about the thing being discussed, he just wants to torque someones nose and see if any fish will go after his bait.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 05:10 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Hello. Apologies if this runs long.
I am new to the CD forums and committed to joining a few days because of all of you. I have read the forums as a guest for over a year.I read this thread this morning before I left for errands and twirled it around along with the thread response of Tetraman in 'Your Best FIRST Experience'. 174 and 1230 had a wonderful time together, experiencing that magical kaleidescopic moment when everything centers and life is good. So I had the two threads mixing and mingling together.

My thoughts agree with Eugenia. The moderators are good, the red reps are good, constant vigilance is good but the beauty and the magic is you. We all mentor the teams: team mates, teachers, coaches, mentors, engineers, parents, sponsors, regional directors - the list goes on. We know the tensions in the shop and during competitions. F.I.R.S.T. has a natural rhythm: build, gearing up for competition, gearing down from competition, up, down, then nationals. Emotions are tucked in with the tools/parts in the carts that go back and forth through travel. And you do here what you naturally do in the shop and at the competitions. You mentor. New members and sponsors read past the initial flame and into the wealth of wisdom and humor that is written on the pages - counseling, disciplining, guiding. Never doubt that CD still does what it hopes to do - maybe a little differently than a few years ago and on a more complex scale, but it still works. Because of you. I read the new posts and the portal looking for names. I know that I will soon be laughing or learning, gaining wisdom and insight, and will have a good quote for the day. Because of you.
Jane Young

Last edited by JaneYoung : 03-26-2006 at 05:16 PM.
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Unread 03-26-2006, 07:20 PM
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Re: The Ugliest Trend Yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
the term 'troll' is a spin-off of a method of fishing. You pull a piece of bait on a hook behind a slow moving boat, trying to get a fish to bite: Trolling.

Trolling on a website is throwing out some comment that you know will start an argument or flame war. The troll doesn't really care anything about the thing being discussed, he just wants to torque someones nose and see if any fish will go after his bait.
Ahhh.. i was thinking the name was derived from those other creatures... oh well.
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