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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-03-2006, 07:44 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Flex 188
One last thing, as a teenage student, recently graduated, I sense a distinct level of disdain for members of my age group. We may be young, but we have all read the rules in this case and know the official stance. We are not boorish nor immature. One of the things that we are also taught in FIRST is to strive to be the best that we can be, which includes questioning when rules are not followed or not enforced.
I can ignore your continued effort to produce conflict, but a personal attack has no place in this discussion. Do you really think that I have disdain for members of your age group, given that I mentor a FIRST team without vested personal interest? You have clearly missed the point of my post...
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Unread 05-03-2006, 07:45 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne C.
Bigger Pet Peeve-

Teams that stand up "down in front" completely blocking the field for all others to see. There were a few in Atl. who stood through their entire matches every time and made it impossible to see a thing from behind them for rows and rows. And that then required everybody behind to stand up too.

WC
Yep. When people do that it does get annoying but you can understand. Like we sat right behind moe, and when our match was vs them in quarter finals my team had to jump up and down to see past them because it was an intesely ridiculus match, (AWESOME to watch), but that didnt bother me. Actually I cheered for them since i made friends with them. What did bother me more was the fact that During the awards/finals when they opened the upper deck, I almost got talked to for removing a red cloth off of a row of empty seats and putting it on another so a frined can sit..

At that I would like to question, Do you really need to stand for EVERY award given? And for EVERYTHING said? Lol. I had someone infront of me who stood more of the Awards/Finals than they probiably sat the WHOLE tournament.

Pavan
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Unread 05-03-2006, 07:55 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoutingNerd175
...However, if there were no saving seats it would be impossible for teams to ever sit together. I just don't think that it's logistically possible to have no saving seats. People will have to get up to do things and come back. Should we make the drive team sit far away from the rest of the team because they had to go down to the pit in the morning and we couldn't save a seat for them? So I agree that knew rules should be made, but this could be taken to far.
I think this is the best point made so far.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 07:58 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetraman
But...you see...there is the thing....called the Team Spirit Award...and I've never seen a team win the award when they sit down as their team is out on the field. My $0.02 about that.
Well, standing up and blocking the view of others really isn't the GP thing to do. Even if it means possibly not getting the "Team Spirit Award", it is still a whole lot better to let the teams behind you scout than to jump up and prevent them from seeing the other teams. Hey, it could very well mean the difference between winning the Championships or losing them. You never really know until it happens.

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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:05 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

I could have been oblivious, that is a possibility - but I didn't see any problems in our sections of Gali-LEO - the teams stood between matches, going nuts for their teams but they sat during the matches for the most part. We had scouts that were working really hard and had to look around some people sometimes but over all I thought the teams were awesome. Let's see how to put it:
They rocked out - graciously -
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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:10 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavan
At that I would like to question, Do you really need to stand for EVERY award given?
Need to? No.

But I am compelled to by my genuine enthusiasm and appreciation of the team receiving the award, and by my desire to let them know that I celebrate their accomplishments.

(By the way, I don't stand for the award. I stand and applaud and cheer for the recipients.)
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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:13 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH
You guys are one of the teams that almost didn't get scouted. If you must stand through your entire match, when scouts behind you need to see the field (and when bystanders, people just dropping by, etc. would prefer to see it), then please be as far back as you can get. Otherwise, you may be subjected to comments about "Lousy window!" from above and behind you. Team introductions and scores announced, stand all you please. Matches, sit down and cheer from a sitting position.
Our team spirit is all we have. Our robot is awful this year and is usualy isn't that good any other year. We won Buckeye this year all case we were matched with 272 and 494. We went 1-6-0 at Atlanta. What would you do if you were loseing? I'd get myself up, shout as lond as I could and let people know that this is the robot that my team has built and we are proud of it. I wouldn't expect anyone to scout us, we are rarely noticed anyway. All we have been known for is cheering. So thats what me and my team are going to do. We are going to get up for our robot. And if we are in your way, thats great. You can read the back of our shirts and see who we are. Thats my team's thoughts on the subject.

Other than that, I think that if everyone is really nuts about it, how about asking FIRST if they can tape off the front row of seats what way scouts can have a seat, and ask them to enforce it. If it's really that much of a problem, tell FIRST you want them to inforce it. No sence just ranting on it here. If you want something done about it, than do something about it.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:27 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by eugenebrooks
I can ignore your continued effort to produce conflict... You have clearly missed the point of my post...
I was never the intent of Jeff or the other 188/1114 mentors & students to cause a conflict. Here's exactly what happened. Some 1114/188 scouts went to the front row of the Curie stands to grab seats for scouting. Obviously they wanted the seats with best field of view. These teams were being saved by another team. Since the rules specifically disallow the saving of seats, they sat down in them. Initially, nothing was said. Then 3 additional 1114 members came to sit down with their teammates. Then the mentors form the seat saving team came and began yelling at the 1114 members. The 1114 members calmly explained that the saving of seats was illegal. The team in question said "it doesn't matter, everyone else does it." They then proceed to lambaste these mentors and students in rather rude fashion.

You can claim that they were looking for conflict, but these individuals were just standing up (or sitting ) for their rights. Too often teams are allowed to save seats because no one lets them know it's wrong. Some teams are even shocked to discover that it's not permitted, and graciously free up the seats once they see the rule.

Yes, we should not seek conflict, but at the same time we cannot turn a blind eye upon those who break the rules.

As for Jeffrey's comment about the disdain for his age group, there were comments directed at the 1114/188 college mentors during this fracas which illustrated this disdain. I don't believe Jeff's comment was directed at you.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:38 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

From Karthik's description of the situation the answer is quite simple. The other team is in the wrong.

I get that you want to sit together, that's great, it boosts teamwork. I have no problem with you leaving your seat for 5-10 minutes to use the restroom or grab a soda, nor do I think anyone else does.

It is clear, however, that the saving of seats is not permitted. "Everyone else does it" just doesn't cut it. I'm sorry, if every other team brought in a bandsaw and put it in their pits, would you do it too? No because that's a robot rule, it must be strictly followed, the judges might see you. Hmmm, interesting point. Isn't GP what you do when you're on and off the field? Whether you're being watched or not? If someone could please explain to me what horrid harm these team members of 188 and 1114 were doing to this poor team that was making sure that no one sat in these empty seats I would very much appreciate it.

If there were enough seats for them to put their tushes down without having to have a member of the other team stand up and move, then get over it. The other team was in the wrong and had a hissy fit for being called on it. Boo-hoo, grow up, get over it.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 08:40 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Maybe if people wrote letters to FIRST that asked them to address the issue, they would allow up to like 4-5 team members on the 2nd level during that day for scouting purposes. Or they could desginate so many rows down in front for scouts and have everyone else (teams) stand behind them. It's just not a very FIRST like thing to sit in the stands and not make any noise during your match. It's obviously not a very good match if it's not exciting enough to get everyone on their feet and making noise to support you.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 09:06 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson
Need to? No.

But I am compelled to by my genuine enthusiasm and appreciation of the team receiving the award, and by my desire to let them know that I celebrate their accomplishments.

(By the way, I don't stand for the award. I stand and applaud and cheer for the recipients.)
As do I Sir, But I believe that if you are sitting in front row (which this person was), and you stand for everything like sitting on the chair will give you the Flu, it is rude, expecially to the people behind you.

And as for me, I applauded and got some mentors on me for cheering for some award winners loudly...(Just didnt stand cause we were in the 3rd 4th row)

Pavan
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Unread 05-03-2006, 09:23 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTorak
Maybe if people wrote letters to FIRST that asked them to address the issue, they would allow up to like 4-5 team members on the 2nd level during that day for scouting purposes. Or they could desginate so many rows down in front for scouts and have everyone else (teams) stand behind them. It's just not a very FIRST like thing to sit in the stands and not make any noise during your match. It's obviously not a very good match if it's not exciting enough to get everyone on their feet and making noise to support you.
I agree. If you want something done about it, do something about it!
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Unread 05-03-2006, 09:29 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

See I would definitely be in favor of having a section for scouting at the front. When I am trying to scout a team but I can't see them because the people in front of me are standing, I get annoyed. However, when we were able to stand during our matches at Chesapeake, we were a lot more happy and spirited than later in the day when we (the entire regional, not just 175)were asked to please refrain from standing. We listened to this because we had been asked to. Some teams did not. In Atlanta, because it was so hard to see over standing teams, we decided to only stand when our number was called. As a result (could be causation or correlation) we were less spirited. However, it makes everything a lot less fun. I think that if a teams scouts could sit in the front and the teams could stand and cheer in back that might help. The only thing that could potentially be a bother in this plan is that scouts would be isolated from the team. Also, teams like mine would have almost no one in the team section due to lack of students. Since we can't save seats, would the scouts have seats when they returned to the team section of the stands to watch matches? Yes, it is a logistical nightmare. I understand the desire of any strong scouting program to get data on each match, but I also understand the desire of a spirited team to stand and cheer, even for a losing robot. To say that a team won't get scouted because they have spirit seems sort of like a punishment for a problem they did not create.

As far as awards go; there is no good reason for people to not stand for every award. What is it you are trying to see while people are applauding for the award winner? More importantly, why aren't you standing too? These people have a great accomplishment. They definitely deserve the recognition of the entire FIRST Community for that. A standing ovation is a long excepted tradition for recognition of something great. A woman once asked me to sit down during the curtain call for a truly wonderful show. I asked her to please stand up and give the cast the ovation they deserved. There is no reason not to stand during applause, there isn't anything else to see until after the applause dies down.
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Unread 05-03-2006, 10:10 PM
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Re: Saving Seats

The event I heard about was obviously a different one, as it involved 6 students who attempted to save "already saved" seats with their backbacks. It was quite a fuss. I am sure that members of a team that is opposed to saving seats would not have done that. I will spare the thread the unimportant details, and leave out the colorful adjectives that only serve to demonstrate my lack of objectivity.

The scenario mentioned below, however, with three arrivals and no response followed by more arrivals eliciting a response; reminds me of a conflict in the middle east that continues to this day. I am sure that everyone there is just standing up for their rights. After all, if you don't stand up for your rights people will just run over you, won't they?

These actions, by definition, are a confrontation. You really can't claim that you are not seeking a conflict when you stand up (or sit down) for your rights.

With regard to Jeff's comments in response to my post, he quoted my post and replied to it directly. An insult is in the eye of the beholder; as is the notion of yelling, the notion of rudeness, the notion of calmness and the notion of politeness. These are all perceptions, and are all important, but it is how other people percieve you that really matters.

An earlier poster indicated that a thread addressing seat saving would not be very fruitful, and I think that poster was right. I will drop this thread from my list.

Eugene



Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik
I was never the intent of Jeff or the other 188/1114 mentors & students to cause a conflict. Here's exactly what happened. Some 1114/188 scouts went to the front row of the Curie stands to grab seats for scouting. Obviously they wanted the seats with best field of view. These teams were being saved by another team. Since the rules specifically disallow the saving of seats, they sat down in them. Initially, nothing was said. Then 3 additional 1114 members came to sit down with their teammates. Then the mentors form the seat saving team came and began yelling at the 1114 members. The 1114 members calmly explained that the saving of seats was illegal. The team in question said "it doesn't matter, everyone else does it." They then proceed to lambaste these mentors and students in rather rude fashion.

You can claim that they were looking for conflict, but these individuals were just standing up (or sitting ) for their rights. Too often teams are allowed to save seats because no one lets them know it's wrong. Some teams are even shocked to discover that it's not permitted, and graciously free up the seats once they see the rule.

Yes, we should not seek conflict, but at the same time we cannot turn a blind eye upon those who break the rules.

As for Jeffrey's comment about the disdain for his age group, there were comments directed at the 1114/188 college mentors during this fracas which illustrated this disdain. I don't believe Jeff's comment was directed at you.
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Unread 05-04-2006, 01:43 AM
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Re: Saving Seats

This is a becoming a situation that FIRST must address. A few years ago, some members of Team 980 had a similar conflict with a team in the stands over saved seats. Our team wasn't very large, yet ended up scattered in the stands because we didn't save a block of seats for our members that were in the pits and on the drive team.

I've suggested in earlier posts and threads that FIRST assign block seating to teams prior to the event based on information provided at time of registration (i.e. number of team members and supporters anticipated at the event). The location of the seats for the teams can be done a number of ways, ranging from random draw, to team seniority, to number of regional awards won. This may be difficult to accomplish logistically, but if this sort of behavior continues and escalates, someone is likely to cross the line and real problems will arise.

Rather than bicker, can we try to offer a reasonable solution to FIRST?
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2007 LA: Finalist; San Diego: Q-finals; CalGames: Finalist || 2008 San Diego: Q-finals; LA: Winners; CalGames: Finalist
2009 LA: Semifinals; Las Vegas: Q-finals; IRI: #1 Seed, Finalist || 2010 AZ: Motorola Quality; LA: Finalist
2011 SD: Q-finals; LA: Q-finals || 2013 LA: Xerox Creativity, WFFA, Dean's List Finalist || 2014 IE: Q-finals, LA: Finalist
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