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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Ben Piecuch Ben Piecuch is offline
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Update #16

Geez, I'm never the 1st one to notice this.

http://www2.usfirst.org/2007comp/Upd...pdate%2016.pdf

There's not much too it, in terms of the number of sentences. But, I'll leave you to determine how this update inpacts your team.

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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:32 PM
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Update #16

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one
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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: Update #16

w00t to changing the algorithm
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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:33 PM
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one
no machine shop for buzz either
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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:36 PM
chris31 chris31 is offline
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one
It also says no mobile machine shops. This is shocking as the machine shop at VCU took hours to cut a piece of lexan into a rectangle for us and it was horribly not straight. I think mobile shops like what the Circuit Runners had are nice even though I didnt get to see it.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 05:55 PM
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Re: Update #16

Guess 90% of us own machine shops. I don't understand the why we can't have a drill press or bands saw. In past years I had heart ache with the grinding wheel part.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:07 PM
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Re: Update #16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Update #16
Non-FIRST Machine Shops
FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops at any FRC regional event sites, either inside or outside. This also includes grinding wheels, bandsaws and/or drill presses in the Pit. The local Regional Planning Committees have worked hard to provide machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs.
This is a change from previous years. For several years now there has been a rule (<R21> this year) against "private" on-site non-FIRST machine shops or large power tools; but FIRST has allowed teams to use such resources if they make them available to all teams. This year such things are not being allowed at all -- I think the reason has to do with FIRST's liability coverage. Translated: FIRST is vulnerable to opportunistic lawyers if they allow us to use potentially dangerous tools at their events.

I'm not a big fan of this change, but if FIRST says they need to make it then I am not going to challenge them. The shop facilities provided at every FRC event I have attended have been excellent.

At St. Louis last Thursday I had the honor of telling Paul Copioli that the Thunderchickens' band saw, which they have allowed other teams to use at FRC events for many years, would have to be shut down. Needless to say Paul was not happy with the decision, either; but he's a gracious professional and he complied with FIRST's direction.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:09 PM
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Re: Update #16

So that's why we seemed to go against that one robot in every match...
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:10 PM
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Re: Update #16

Well I can understand why FIRST banned drill presses and bandsaws in the pits, as they are 2 very dangerous machines and in the pits there isn't really enough space available to operate them safely. I am also glad to hear that FIRST is working on the algorithm for the scheduling.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:13 PM
Jim E Jim E is offline
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Re: Update #16

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:38 PM
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Unhappy Re: Update #16

Team 1598 had a bandsaw in the pits at VCU anc cut a lot of parts for a lot of teams. John Henderson spent hours cutting for others. The safety inspectors were there while we were using it and said nothing to us. I feel bad that we were breaking a rule that I was not aware of. We will not use it again.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:39 PM
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
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Re: Update #16

I would argue circular saws and sawz-alls are more dangerous. And shoot, a hand drill is often more dangerous.

But, I do understand the need to do this. I guess it all just goes back to the fact that you need to finish your robot before it goes in the crate.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:47 PM
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Re: Update #16

You might convince me of not being able to bring a bandsaw, although I believe that a bandsaw it safer than the alternatives teams will end up using.

But no drill press?
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Unread 03-06-2007, 06:56 PM
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Re: Update #16

We were not allowed to use our bandsaw at Purdue last year.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 07:38 PM
Ben Piecuch Ben Piecuch is offline
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Re: Update #16

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN
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