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Unread 12-20-2007, 07:46 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
The problem with using a lens is that it has a focal length. The further away from that length you are (both closer or farther) the more defocused you get. Any single lens that gives you IR visability across the field will be out of focus up close (and may not be detectable). A zoom lens coupled with an PID circuit could allow you to focus at any length.
This isn't a camera. Being "in focus" is irrelevant. What an extra lens can provide here is a combination of directivity and light-collecting power. For this application, non-imaging optics are fine. It's the size of the lens that matters most, and the focal length is (to a point) unimportant.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 07:51 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBotAlan View Post
Without further ado:

Part
330 (Joe Ross) 1999 Hermosa Beach, CA
846 (SU 39) 2002 San Jose, CA
701 (Doug G) 2001 Fairfield, CA
237 (Elgin Clock) 1999 Watertown, CT
34 (Ed Sparks) 1997 Huntsville, AL
766 (razor95kds) 2002 Atherton, CA

Blast only
1018 (Stu Bloom) 2003 Indianapolis, IN
? 2264 (vivek16) 2007 Plymouth, MN
2370 (fimmel) ? (TBA lists 0 as rookie year...) Rutland, VT
418 (JaneYoung) 2000 Austin, TX
1923 (Libby K) 2006 Plainsboro, NJ
217 (GeeForce) 1999 Sterling Heights, MI
1025 (GaryVoshol) ? (TBA lists 0 as rookie year) Ferndale, MI
340 or 424...not sure (rees2001) 340 and 424: 2000 Churchville, NY
190 (Nuttyman54) 1992 Worcester, MA
781 (d.courtney) 2002 Kincardine, ON (Canada)
1565 (T3_1565) 2005 Cambridge, ON (Canada)
68 (JBotAlan) 1998 Pontiac, MI

Wow...that was a lot of work...

No high-number teams have received their part yet--no team # > 1000. Other than that I see little correlation. Analyze away. I'm done with that.


At the top of the page, there is a link labeled "Chief Delphi"--it's at the beginning of "Chief Delphi > ChiefDelphi.com website > Extra Discussion..." Click it and pick the correct forum. Then, click the New Thread button at the top, and post away.

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Unread 12-20-2007, 08:22 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol View Post




.
(whatever that dot means)
Typically it's used to end sentences while writing.
Atypically, it's used to amuse certain NASA employees & screw with your head.

Note that a " . " is also called a period, and thus could be a clue as to the return of a game with periods in it such as 2006.

But then again... maybe not.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 09:00 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
This isn't a camera. Being "in focus" is irrelevant. What an extra lens can provide here is a combination of directivity and light-collecting power. For this application, non-imaging optics are fine. It's the size of the lens that matters most, and the focal length is (to a point) unimportant.
Being perfectly 'in focus' is not important, you are correct. But being out of focus will lessen the energy recieved by the sensor, and as such will make it less sensitive (requireing more light to trigger). In addition, adding a lens will shorten it's field of vision.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 09:02 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Ok folks, I have it on very good authority how this game piece is going to be used. Please pay close attention to the directions, otherwise, yours will not work properly:

1: You're going to need 2 blank sheets of white paper and a pencil. A pen will not do.
2: You need to be in a location where you will not be interrupted. You will have very limited time once you start.
3: Sit down at a large table, you will need to spread out
4: Take your game piece sent to you in the mail. Place the piece front side up on the table, and drape the first piece of paper over it like a tablecloth
5: Making sure that the paper stays in place, take your pencil and holding it horizontally, rub it across the paper back and forth from one side of the board to the other until you get a full scale drawing
6: Turn the board piece upside down and do the same with the other piece of paper
7: Now this step is very important. Take your 2 sheets of paper and 2 pieces of tape, and hang the papers on your door or on your cubicle. You now have artwork to remind you of all of the fun you had anticipating the 2008 game.

Enjoy the water game!

PS. What did you think you were going to get from the non-techy!?
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Unread 12-20-2007, 09:57 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth Sweet View Post
Ok folks, I have it on very good authority how this game piece is going to be used. Please pay close attention to the directions, otherwise, yours will not work properly:

1: You're going to need 2 blank sheets of white paper and a pencil. A pen will not do.
2: You need to be in a location where you will not be interrupted. You will have very limited time once you start.
3: Sit down at a large table, you will need to spread out
4: Take your game piece sent to you in the mail. Place the piece front side up on the table, and drape the first piece of paper over it like a tablecloth
5: Making sure that the paper stays in place, take your pencil and holding it horizontally, rub it across the paper back and forth from one side of the board to the other until you get a full scale drawing
6: Turn the board piece upside down and do the same with the other piece of paper
7: Now this step is very important. Take your 2 sheets of paper and 2 pieces of tape, and hang the papers on your door or on your cubicle. You now have artwork to remind you of all of the fun you had anticipating the 2008 game.

Enjoy the water game!

PS. What did you think you were going to get from the non-techy!?
Printing the picture and hanging it up:
1. Easier
2. More exact replica
3. Adds more color to your desk (If you print it in color)
4. Faster, allows more time to stare at the final product
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Unread 12-20-2007, 09:59 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Being perfectly 'in focus' is not important, you are correct. But being out of focus will lessen the energy recieved by the sensor, and as such will make it less sensitive (requireing more light to trigger).
You're still talking about this as an imaging application, but that's not the case. The sensor is essentially unfocused to begin with. A suitably sized lens can only increase the energy it receives, and will thus make it more sensitive.

You're correct to a point, in that being "out of focus" will result in less light on the sensor than if it were "in focus". But if a converging lens is positioned so that the optically receptive part of the sensor casing is at its focal point, it will still put more light on the sensor than if there were no lens at all.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 10:25 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Can't soldering on a second IR module in parallel increase the range?
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Unread 12-20-2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Our team finally got it up and running today, I during the test have come to a good conclusion

Each Team WILL NOT have a remote for anysort of transmitting!

During our test we found out that pressing the button that has been "learned" to the board and pressing another button from a different controllor (doesn't matter what button) interfers with the signal and you get no response from the board

Therefore that only thing I see this being used for is if the field transmits date to the bots!
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:09 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
Our team finally got it up and running today, I during the test have come to a good conclusion
Each Team WILL NOT have a remote for anysort of transmitting!
During our test we found out that pressing the button that has been "learned" to the board and pressing another button from a different controllor (doesn't matter what button) interfers with the signal and you get no response from the board
Therefore that only thing I see this being used for is if the field transmits date to the bots!
Hold on just a second!
If I follow what you are saying correctly, and relate it to an IR sensor on a TV & a VCR in the same room is that once you program board 1 (TV) with Remote 1 and then use Remote 2 next to it for something else (VCR, board 2, whatever the case) that you render the board 1 (and Remote 1) completely inoperable with each other?

That (if you don't have a faulty board) does not sound good.

Basically what I'm understanding is that when you program it with Remote 1, then pushing anything on Remote number 2 makes all remotes useles???

This doesn't make sense to me. Please tell me I misunderstood you.

I have a theory if this is indeed what you meant. But I'll hold off on that while you answer this one.
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Last edited by Elgin Clock : 12-20-2007 at 12:16 PM.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:32 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by T3_1565 View Post
Our team finally got it up and running today, I during the test have come to a good conclusion

Each Team WILL NOT have a remote for anysort of transmitting!

During our test we found out that pressing the button that has been "learned" to the board and pressing another button from a different controllor (doesn't matter what button) interfers with the signal and you get no response from the board

Therefore that only thing I see this being used for is if the field transmits date to the bots!
This sounds pretty reasonable. The IR receiver simply learns the pattern of pulses coming from a remote when the button is pressed. If two remotes are pressed simultaneously, the receiver will detect both IR patterns at the same time, and to it will see a "merged" pattern that contains both signals.

To use this receiver effectively, the emitters have to be situated in such a way that only one is visible in its field of view at any time. So if remotes are actually used on field, they'd have to be roughly 90 degrees apart, meaning only 4 human players. This also fights the transmitters onboard robots theory, as two robots could be transmitting to the same receiver and it would detect neither.

More backing to help the transmitters on field theory?
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:38 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elgin Clock View Post
Hold on just a second!
If I follow what you are saying correctly, and relate it to an IR sensor on a TV & a VCR in the same room is that once you program board 1 (TV) with Remote 1 and then use Remote 2 next to it for something else (VCR, board 2, whatever the case) that you render the board 1 (and Remote 1) completely inoperable with each other?

That (if you don't have a faulty board) does not sound good.

Basically what I'm understnading is that when you program it with Remote 1, then pushing anything on Remote number 2 makes all remotes useles???

This doesn't make sense to me. Please tell me I misunderstood you.

I have a theory if this is indeed what you meant. But I'll hold off on that while you answer this one.
Elgin,

I believe what he's saying is that if you program it with Remote 1 and you're only pressing buttons on Remote 1, then it works as advertised. If, however, you start mashing/holding buttons on Remote 2 and then try previously working buttons on Remote 1, then it doesn't work. If you then stop mashing buttons on Remote 2, buttons on Remote 1 will work again as advertised.

This only makes sense as all the sensor is looking for is a specifically modulated pulse train from the remote in the IR spectrum. If another remote is sending out a pulse train on the same IR wavelength, you'll end up with the two pulse trains superimposed on one another, which is bound to stymie the controller attempting to decode it.

This should have occurred to me earlier, but it's definitely one more argument against having several uncontrolled, uncoordinated transmitters moving about on the field. If you need a specific IR pulse to operate something on the field but another team is maliciously/accidentally/coincidentally transmitting at the same, then the two transmitters will jam each other at the receiver and nothing will happen.

Of course this opens up the possibility of someone in the stands with a suped-up TV remote jamming any or all robot recievers on the field....
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:50 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Elgin,

I believe what he's saying is that if you program it with Remote 1 and you're only pressing buttons on Remote 1, then it works as advertised. If, however, you start mashing/holding buttons on Remote 2 and then try previously working buttons on Remote 1, then it doesn't work. If you then stop mashing buttons on Remote 2, buttons on Remote 1 will work again as advertised.

This only makes sense as all the sensor is looking for is a specifically modulated pulse train from the remote in the IR spectrum. If another remote is sending out a pulse train on the same IR wavelength, you'll end up with the two pulse trains superimposed on one another, which is bound to stymie the controller attempting to decode it.

This should have occurred to me earlier, but it's definitely one more argument against having several uncontrolled, uncoordinated transmitters moving about on the field. If you need a specific IR pulse to operate something on the field but another team is maliciously/accidentally/coincidentally transmitting at the same, then the two transmitters will jam each other at the receiver and nothing will happen.

Of course this opens up the possibility of someone in the stands with a suped-up TV remote jamming any or all robot recievers on the field....
Ok, that makes sense. If you have a scrambled pattern then it can't decode it. Sounds logical.
The only way I can see the thing being used on a robot now is if the intended purpose for this is to act as an E-Stop for all robots? Would that be a conceivable idea?

And the "the possibility of someone in the stands with a suped-up TV remote jamming any or all robot recievers on the field" was on the top of my thoughts when I saw we were using IR detectors in some way (with things available on the market such as remotes that can interact with all kinds of IR devices like the ninja remote, or the Tv Be gone type thing)

This would work perfect in my whole Remote E-Stop theory, but of course... then there is the flip side of the illegal crowd controlled device as well, which I'm sure no one in FIRST would even try in the spirit of things.

Another good point was brought up a while ago, about flash cameras interfering with the IR sensors as well as was the case a few years back in the FLL world. This doesn't seem like it would be a rule that would go over too big in a FIRST competition if they were to ban flash based cameras at competitions.

Speaking of IR devices on the market, did anyone catch the latest device from the company that makes "The Clapper"?
It's a remote control device as well as a clapper. lol
http://www.jeiusa.com/clapperplus.html

Just something else to ponder the timing of in the whole conspiracy aspect of the thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut View Post
To use this receiver effectively, the emitters have to be situated in such a way that only one is visible in its field of view at any time. So if remotes are actually used on field, they'd have to be roughly 90 degrees apart, meaning only 4 human players. This also fights the transmitters onboard robots theory, as two robots could be transmitting to the same receiver and it would detect neither.

More backing to help the transmitters on field theory?
IR receivers from what I have gathered are "line of sight" controllers, so if they told us to put our robot a certain place on a field to interact with a human player with a remote (kind of the way 2005 used the loading zones with the Tetras) then I think it could be conceivable in that case. Also, I would expect some sort of wall to be built near that area so it couldn't be interfered with in that case as well maybe? idk. If we go up to Kickoff and see that the Field has extra walls on the outside of it, I'm going to be more likely to be able to see that being a real possibility. It won't help by that point, because it will only be <1 hour before the game is revealed but whatever. lol

I think after all of this guessing, I'm still on the fence as to whether it's for on the robot, or a field element now. Arghhhhhhh!!!
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Unread 12-20-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: pic: Game hint

There's no reason why the four commands couldn't be used in combination:
cmd1, cmd2, pause, cmd1, cmd2 ...

giving 16 possible combinations, or 64 etc.

Might be game pieces telling the robot what state they are in.

"Busy", "Ready", "You Scored", "Go Away", "Red Team goal", "Blue Team goal ", "Penalty for using", "Extra Points Now!".... endless possibilities.

I wonder how many games we could come up with that are not the one for FRC 2008.

Possibilities increase if the robots can also send commands.
Remember - it's all idle speculation - we just don't have enough info.

As for the interference - mount the receiver in a box and make it look down a tube, it'll become very sensitive to direction and less able to be interfered by another transmitter.
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Unread 12-20-2007, 12:14 PM
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Smile Re: pic: Game hint

Team 1254 received our part.
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