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Go to Post So perhaps those that are so eager to complain might realize that if they spent a little less time complaining and a little more time analyzing the problem and developing solutions, then they might have a little less to complain about. - dlavery [more]
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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-07-2008, 08:09 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Personally I beleive this game is much more than a race. If you just look at the bigger picture than you will see that the hurdling aspect of the game makes it much different. Do I like it? no. But will I play it? yes.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 08:22 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Ya know...its gotta be tough being a member of the Game Design Committee. Each year, they must create a game which challenges teams in design and strategy. In order to do this, they have to throw in a major monkey wrench EVERY YEAR. That is not an easy task to accomplish. To just change up a game piece and a goal each year would be quite boring. In order to get the fresh twists each year, sometimes the GDC has to do things that not everyone will like. (Look at the 01 game) Sometimes the game will be played out, and it will be a hit. Sometimes, it will be a miss...other times, right in the middle. The true beauty is, no matter what the game (Yes, even 2001), we spend these 6 weeks going crazy with design strategy, and trying to figure out a way to work the plot twists that the GDC throws at us...and its a blast.

My point...enjoy the time you have now. Reguardless of what takes place on the field come March, this is the true beauty of FIRST. Live it, breathe it, enjoy it..because we all know, in a matter of a couple of weeks you'll be sleeping it.

Will the game be as exciting as alot of people think? That remains to be seen. However, kudos to the Game Design Committee for throwing out yet another difficult twist.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 08:28 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

My first reaction to this year's game is not appropriate for CD. My second reaction was that it will be one of the most boring things I have ever seen; to pass time, I often watch matches on SOAP/TBA in the off-season and I felt that I wouldn't be able to do that this summer (too dull...). After a while I pretty much have stabilized my opinions to this:
  • The early regionals will be boring
  • There will be a lot of boxbots
  • There will be a lot of broken arms
  • Many teams will gear their robots too fast and damage them
  • There will be a wide variety of poorly thought out omnidirectional systems
  • There will be a bunch of slow, boring arms on slow, boring robots
  • Trackballs will destroy ( or heavily damage) at least one robot per event
  • The Championship will be very exciting, especially Einstein

So, I still have reservations (no defense strikes me as rather lame... I liked the cat-and-mouse game of good defense), but the game is growing on me somewhat. I think FIRST has produced multiple games that are better (2000, 2006, 2004, etc), but this isn't an awful game by any means.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 09:28 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Why does it always come down to complaining? It's a game. It's a challenge. Face it like a man, build a robot to play the game and get over it.

Last year when 2007 game was released, a lot of people have said that it was going to be boring, or you won't see that many tubes capped. It's never an exciting game until you see quality robots playing the game.

You can do a LOT with the game given this year. Think, design and create a quality machine that won't make the game boring rather than wasting you time sitting here on the forum complaining about how boring it is.

I am sorry if my post offended anyone, but there seemed to be too much complaining since last season. I have said this before and I am going to say it again. You CAN'T make everyone happy. It's not a perfect world. Deal with the rules and play the game.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 09:31 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arefin Bari View Post
.... but there seemed to be too much complaining since last season. I have said this before and I am going to say it again. You CAN'T make everyone happy. It's not a perfect world. Deal with the rules and play the game.
I agree with what Einstein has posted above.

Yes, that is my new nickname for Arefin.

Andy B.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 09:32 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

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Originally Posted by M. Krass View Post
The removal of <G36> from consideration means that there are now some additional options available for defense.

It may now be a viable strategy to remain just beyond your opponent's finish line and erect a backboard that prevents them getting their trackball to the other side of the overpass. If the rest of the track remains clear, the alliance can't justify "bumping to pass" and will be forced to maneuver around to score in a different location. A swerve drive on your machine means you could sweep back and forth and be very, very effective and preventing much scoring from taking place.
Madison, we were considering this even with the restrictions. In fact, doing this behind the overpass was and is legal. The only risk is breaking the plane going backwards. What's now legal is pulling the same stunt in front of the overpass as well. And the prime risk in all these endeavors is the chance of an 8 lb ball at decent velocity toppling your robot or breaking an arm.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 09:35 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Its Mario Kart with balls and really, whats more fun and frustrating (FIRST style) than Mario Kart?
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Unread 01-07-2008, 09:49 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

You know, my initial response was definitely one of "What the heck is this?"

But once again, my brain started swirling, and just like every year, I have one of those "Magic Eye" moments.... you know, how you start to see the cool little 3d image through all the static that's right in front of your face?

The solution to FIRST challenges should never be about coming up with the "l33t drive trainx0rz to pwn all teh newbz who try to play the game". It isn't about trying to come up with loopholes to the rules. The amount of "hawt robot on robot action" is not what we should gauge our opinions of the game design on.

In years past, rookie teams, or teams without resources, that were unsuccessful at making a manipulator would make wonderful alliance opponents, because you knew that robots without a solid means to participate would be minor nuisances at best.

In this year's game, they've CONSIDERABLY raised the difficulty of the challenge, while simultaneously raising the accessibility factor of the game to less-experienced or less-technical teams. These little bots can now be a factor in the scoring of the game, and can continue to play both an offensive and defensive role with a half-working machine (even if its a team who had a manipulator that broke during practice rounds).

The real challenge for the veteran teams is to maximize their score potential through a more carefully thought out hybrid period, and by consistently being able to maximize every scoring opportunity they can. An let me tell you, I can't WAIT to dig into that IR board.

I honestly wonder at this point whether or not this game will get a bit more boring to watch as the season progresses, but it's too early to tell.

One suggestion I would make to all teams is to try to build part of an overpass and place a fully-inflated trackball on it before trying to come to any conclusions about the game. I'm impressed at the challenge, and am looking forward to it.

I think that FIRST did something magical by taking this a step in a different direction. Woodie made it pretty clear that as a FIRST team this year, it's your job to embrace the spirit of the challenge, and to understand that the magic in a competition isn't finding creative ways to make an opponent lose, but finding even more creative ways for you to win. Doing things the same way over and over will eventually cause it to lose its magic, and while I don't always take kindly to a change like this at first, I eventually adapt and drink the kool-aid.

So there's my rant for the 2008 season. Geez, and its only the first school day after kickoff! That didn't take too long!

Good luck everyone!
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Last edited by galewind : 01-07-2008 at 09:52 PM.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 10:02 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

If at first you do not like this game, just sit back and really think about it. Brainstorm. Fill whiteboards and napkins with ideas, drawings, sketches. Debate these with your team. Build your robot. Compete at the competition. Take a nice long rest afterwards to let everything sink in, then share your opinions about the game with all of us, where we can use this feedback to possibly help shape future FRC games.


Unlike previous year's games where effective offense took skilled drivers and efficiently-engineered mechanisms and defense took little thought and just a Kitbot to ram other robots, FIRST has raised the bar for defense. With this game, they have basically declared that if you want to be an effective defensive team, it's going to take just as much thought about your mechanisms as it would take for offensive mechanisms.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

I think the lack of defense in this year's game is awesome; it will allow teams to focus more on amazing mechanisms rather than a beefy drivetrain.
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Unread 01-07-2008, 10:12 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

I concur with Chris' comments. In fact, I'm going to say something that bucks most of the threads on CD - I LOVE THIS GAME!

Okay, "Love" maybe a bit strong. But I think this is a facinating game. There are so many dimensions to this game. As they said at the kick off - See the simplicity on the other side of the chaos. If you see the simplicity on this side of the chaos, you are missing the point. This is going to be a great strategic game. Pure "muscle" doesn't get you there this year.

Of course, my team isn't the team who builds the robot - we develop the strategy for the robot - so, perhaps I am seeing this through those eyes!

So what does "get you there"? Well in my opinion, the great matches - and I hope the finals of each regional are great matches - will be teams who have seen this game as more than driving around in circles really fast. They will be teams who have thought about what the other teams are going to do, and what is possible within the rules. How to maximize the scoring potential, and do so in a cooperative manner. When that happens, it will be a lot of fun to watch, and a lot of fun to play 'that game'!

Good luck to all the teams! I hope to see you at Garden State, Chesapeake or Atlanta!
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Unread 01-07-2008, 10:15 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
I think the lack of defense in this year's game is awesome; it will allow teams to focus more on amazing mechanisms rather than a beefy drivetrain.
Also, the lack of defense solidifies that this game is a RACE - the object is to go faster than the other guy to score more - not slow down and block to make the other guy score less.

THIS is why i think this year will be very fun and competitive.

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Unread 01-07-2008, 10:43 PM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

I don't like this game because it didn't capture my imagination, make me look at things differently, and most importantly, make my brain hurt.
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Unread 01-08-2008, 02:28 AM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

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Originally Posted by Joe Matt View Post
I don't like this game because it didn't capture my imagination, make me look at things differently, and most importantly, make my brain hurt.
I'm not trying to sound mean but maybe your just not thinking hard enough.

I had some early reservations but I think this game will be really exciting in some matches and really really bad in others depending on the robots but this is the same EVERY YEAR. The only game I've seen in my four years in FIRST that's made me totally psyched the second I saw it was Aim High. Now, Rack and Roll is among my favorites and we'll just have to wait before we place this game on the shelf with the elite, or in the trash...
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Unread 01-08-2008, 03:18 AM
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Re: why I don't like this year's game

Last year I was adamant about not liking the game, right up until the regional when I came to my senses, realized FIRST is always going to be fun and throughly enjoyed it. I almost had the same reaction I did last year at kickoff, but then I realized that it's still going to be a lot of fun because its still going to be FIRST.

Also, everyone says there will be no defense, but I disagree. Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. There will still be defense in the game, just not quite the same it has been in years past.

Hope that made sense, I really need some sleep, my winter break ends today, school in the morning.
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