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View Poll Results: Do you agree that teams should be able to work on their robot until their first comp.
I completely agree. 21 14.58%
I agree with some of it. 19 13.19%
I disagree. (please explain) 89 61.81%
I don't think it will work. (please explain) 15 10.42%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:34 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry View Post
From what I know, there are no week 6 events. Yet, think about teams who can afford to make practice bots. They continue to work on making there robot better as the weeks go on. They transfer what they learn from that practice bot to the real machine. Thus, they are working on the robot the entire season.
I also think teams have alot of misconceptions about the concept of a practice bot. Yes, some really big, really well funded teams build a practice bot that is functionally identical to their competition bot. These teams are DEFINITELY in the minority, and there are not very many of them. Many teams build a "practice bot" that is considerably different from their competition bot (perhaps its just a drivebase). This does not have to be overly expensive to do, as it could be built out of steel instead of aluminum, and you're allowed to keep the control system components, so the only major cost would be transmissions and wheels.

Honestly, some teams are really good, and will continue to be really good regardless of whether you let them build practice bots, keep their bots, or anything else.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:35 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
Also, I think theres some misconceptions about multiple event teams. There are only a handful of teams who attend 3 or more regionals. This number is probably less than 10 total, of all teams in FIRST.
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by XaulZan11 View Post
My Advice: Spend less time complaining about FIRST's rules and spend the time fundraising and building a second robot. I think you will get much better results this way.
+1 to this sentiment. As I said, a practice bot does not have to be expensive.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:38 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
At your convenience, please introduce me to a team that win it all every year. There is only one team that has won the top event more than two times, and it took them a decade.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:40 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
Going to multiple events is NOT why they win. These teams are GOOD. They spend most of build season prototyping, and designing, and perfecting their mechanisms before they build them. They have a very effective program, and yes, some of them have large sponsorships, but not all of them do. Going to multiple events helps, but how do you explain why these same teams consistently do well even when they attend Week 1 regionals?

Yes, there are perennial powerhouses. Yes, they're tough to beat. Yes, the competition is better because of them, because younger, less experienced, and less competitive teams strive to beat them, strive to follow in their footsteps. Don't ask them to back down to the level of everyone else. Get everyone else up to their level. They will help you, just ask them for help.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:41 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
These are the teams that fundraise year round so they can attend 3 or 4 events. Teams that do fundraise that much will likely put in a ton of time and effort into their robot. They will likely be the team that is never satisfied with their robot. They will likely be the team that are always thinking of new strategies. They win every year because they work at it not just because they go to 4 events while some teams only play once. In nearly all cases, they have earned whatever 'advantage' they recieve.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:45 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy View Post
Going to multiple events is NOT why they win. These teams are GOOD. They spend most of build season prototyping, and designing, and perfecting their mechanisms before they build them. They have a very effective program, and yes, some of them have large sponsorships, but not all of them do. Going to multiple events helps, but how do you explain why these same teams consistently do well even when they attend Week 1 regionals?

Yes, there are perennial powerhouses. Yes, they're tough to beat. Yes, the competition is better because of them, because younger, less experienced, and less competitive teams strive to beat them, strive to follow in their footsteps. Don't ask them to back down to the level of everyone else. Get everyone else up to their level. They will help you, just ask them for help.
I don't believe he asked for them to back down, I think he asked to give every team a chance to have a shot to move forward, if its because of wintery storms or because of finical problems. Give everyone the chance to put a lot into there robot.

One and done teams may come to a regional with an unfinished robot and pay not get the chance to play. This would benefit them. Last year the No Robot Left behind was very successful. Every team got to the field, but why not strive to have very team play every match?
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:50 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtfgnow View Post
At your convenience, please introduce me to a team that win it all every year. There is only one team that has won the top event more than two times, and it took them a decade.
Teams was plural. I think you will find a correlation with the fact that the teams that go to more events win more.

The main reason that I am trying to support this is the fact that the students are ready to learn the most when the robot is getting shipped and around the time of the competitions. At those times the robot isn’t around much for everyone to learn from and work on it. I want the robot in the student’s hands more so they can work on it more and learn more about it and thus make a difference in their lives. At the events a couple students work on it while others are off scouting. I want everyone to learn from it.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:51 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Every team has EQUAL opportunities as it is now. Your proposed system does not in any way change the EQUALITY of the system. All teams are treated equally. If your team goes out, and gets the sponsorship dollars, and gives FIRST a cheque, they'll happily let you play at more events. These big ticket teams (I can think of two in the immediate area of 326, and two to four in the immediate greater toronto area), don't have the big dollars just fall into their laps and become great. They run a great program, and because of that, are given sponsorship dollars which enables their program to get even better.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:52 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
There is no advantage to one team or another. We all would have the same amount of time to work on the robot. Sure week six would have more competition as it does now. But right now the teams that can afford to go to 4 events have a huge advantage because they get 3 days to work on their robot at every comp when everyone else got none because they couldn’t afford more competitions.
Alright but in my experience in FIRST they may have more money and experience but it hasn't affected the regional outcomes the smaller teams give the powerhouses a run for their money so I would just say leave it as is.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:52 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
Teams was plural. I think you will find a correlation with the fact that the teams that go to more events win more.

The main reason that I am trying to support this is the fact that the students are ready to learn the most when the robot is getting shipped and around the time of the competitions. At those times the robot isn’t around much for everyone to learn from and work on it. I want the robot in the student’s hands more so they can work on it more and learn more about it and thus make a difference in their lives. At the events a couple students work on it while others are off scouting. I want everyone to learn from it.
Correlation != Causation. These teams don't consistently do well because they go to more events, they go to more events because they do well.

EDIT: To say that one thing causes another without any proof to back it up is meaningless. I could say that the decline in the population of pirates is responsible for global warming, the statistics correlate, but its obvious there's no causation there.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
Did you bother to check this before you made your inflated accusations?

There were 12 teams on Einstein last year. 8 of these teams were from outside the state of Michigan. Of those 8, 6 attended 2 regionals and 2 attended a single regional. One of those that attended a single regional was a member of the championship alliance. I excluded the Michigan teams from this because the Michigan situation last year was unique, 2 events for the price of 1 plus a third for $500 leads to teams participating in many more events before Championships.

In 2008 7 of the 12 attended 2 events, 1 attended 1 event and 3 attended 3 events. Here's the interesting thing about the teams that attended 3 events, 2 of the 3 won all 3 regionals they attended. The other won 2 of the 3 and was in the finals of the third. These teams are not good because they go to a whole bunch of competitions, they are good because of their hard work and the organization they have built.

In 2007, 11 of the 12 attended 2 Regionals. The last attended only one.

The FiM system is an attempt to level this disparity. Michigan teams are getting many more matches for their money than other teams.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
And these are the teams that win it all. EVERY YEAR.
These teams do NOT win it every year. Look at team 148 (Robowranglers) They do not always win. And team 971 (Spartan Robotics) They won their first worlds last year. ANYONE can win this game, that is what it is designed around.

FIRST is NOT about winning. This is not just some sport made for children to have fun and win, then cry about it when you don't. This isn't football here. This is FIRST! We are not here to win, we are here to LEARN! Dean Kamen said in his speech "Teaching needs to be left in the classroom." And he is right, teaching needs to be left in the classroom. But learning needs to be in the workroom. I have learned so much in my 2 years of FIRST, stuff that I never would have learned had I stayed in the classroom. THAT is what FIRST is here for.

Would you be more stressed during 6 weeks of build? or 12 weeks? I personally would be more stressed during 6 weeks. That is why every year I sit here and think "Wow, we built that in 6 weeks. And it does what we want, and it does it well." And then I look at 148 and think "WOW!!! And I was impressed by mine... You know what, lets work on that. Lets study this robot, and remember what they did in future years. So that we may someday, be as good as they are."

So please, instead of thinking "Why do they have to be so good and have so much money?!? It's not fair!", think "You know what, I want to be like them. I will strive to be like them." And then this thought will go through your head "but how do we do that???" Then consider this. You know what you have. and what you are capable of. Start there, and work with that.

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Unread 03-04-2010, 01:14 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Ok. I will retract the "every year" statement......

But teams that go to one event are very unlikely to win regionals. The more time you spend working on the robot the better you are going to do and the more you are going to learn.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 01:20 PM
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Re: Vote to change the format of FIRST.

Personally i think that something like this would destroy week 1 events because no one would attend them. People would want to perfect their bots more and know that by the first regional they wont be ready so they will register for later regionals.
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