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View Poll Results: Should FIRST adopt this as the new rules?
Yes, This is much better 13 30.95%
No, Both this and FIRST are way off 14 33.33%
No, I for 1 like negative points 15 35.71%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-12-2003, 02:36 AM
redbeard0531 redbeard0531 is offline
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Lightbulb Petition to change rules!!

Update: read my post at the bottom for more info, im out!


Now, I doubt that negative scores will happen, but this scoring system is getting rediculously complex. Can't it be simpler and easyer to understand?

My sugestion - very easy


The number of boxes in the stack* with the most boxes in it is multiplied by the TOTAL number of boxes in the scoring zone. PERIOD, NO MATER WHAT!


*Definition of stack

dictionary.com "An orderly pile, especially one arranged in layers."

Legalese
"A group of boxes supported by 1 and only 1 box, or any non-box item. Each box can only directly support 1other box.

Any stack not fitting this description is not elegible for the high stack.THATS IT; The boxes in it are just regular boxes!!!



High points (pun intended) in this plan


  • VERY SIMPLE!!!
  • NO [insert colorful ajective(s)] SHU'S!!!
  • a box is a box is a box
  • tallest stack possable = good!!
  • why shouldnt I get points if my bot is holding a stack?
  • Why should I raise my oponents score if my bot cant steal a stack in time?
  • it doesnt take a palm pilot to figure out!!!

ps. this exact same message will be posted in all negative point threads, and in its own poll thread in the rules forum. any updates/replies should be posted in poll thread, so please make sticky. goto the poll thread and lets make it a petitition!!!!

pps. sorry bout the speling, gammer, too many !'s and bouts of RAGE; its 3:45AM!!

-Matt Stearn
CUL8R


edit: minor cleanup

edit: spelling

edit: added SHU comment

edit: I made an error in my calculation that made everything before my idea void. So, i deleted it and replaced it. Also, toned down some rhetoric, and removed referances to neagative points.
i spent 10 minutes checking those things, think how hard it will be to do it on the fly durring the game!

edit: minor rewording, but nothing changed

edit: capitilization, spelling, punctuaion

Last edited by redbeard0531 : 01-12-2003 at 05:55 PM.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:07 AM
Ben Mitchell Ben Mitchell is offline
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Plus, it's a nightmare for spectators. I tried to explain the game to my mother...

Impossible.
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Last edited by Ben Mitchell : 01-12-2003 at 10:12 AM.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:25 AM
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from all the speculation on scoring. this game is not simplier than last year at all. when i first saw the game i thought cool... simple scoring. but as soon as I saw that big stick measuring a stack i knew things would get complicated. i say no SHU, no virtual stack. spectators will get a headache trying to figure out whats going on.

the stack should be simply that. count the layers of it and thats how high it is. multiply by the ones on the ground not in that stack. sooooo easy. but now weve got negative scoring, new measurement units invented, etc. which will make for heated arguments, in which everyone will have a rule book in front of them. if youve ever argued with a first person you know they get extremely technical with rules.

2001 rules were confusing enough, 2002 rules were great, 2003 rules are going downhill fast.

lets try to keep it simple FIRST. To save everyone headaches (or is exedrin a new sponsor, lol)
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Plus, it's a nightmare for spectators. I tried to explain the game to my mother...
I still don't see whats so complicated. It's now tallest pile in your scone that your robot isn't touching. The stack is measured in shu's or how tall those things are right side up. Take that and multiply it by the rest of the blocks in your scoring zone. Stay at the top of the hill and you get 25 points at the end.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:36 AM
redbeard0531 redbeard0531 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by wysiswyg
I still don't see whats so complicated. It's now tallest pile in your scone that your robot isn't touching. The stack is measured in shu's or how tall those things are right side up. Take that and multiply it by the rest of the blocks in your scoring zone. Stay at the top of the hill and you get 25 points at the end.
not any more. read TU3 and your thread
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Unread 01-12-2003, 10:37 AM
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That's where I was reading it from. What am I missing??
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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:10 PM
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redbeard0531 & Ricksta121:
Keep your "improvements" or ideal changes in hand for the Team Forum or for any post season event that you might be organizing, but for now you're going to have to deal with what FIRST decides. If they want to allow for negative points, fine. If they unintentionally made people think that there was a possibility of getting negative points, fine. You're not the people making up the rules for the 2003 FRC, and you're going to have to deal with the rules just like the rest of us. So what's the point in complaining so much? If you think that a petition (wether it be on the CD Forums or emailed directly to FIRST) will make FIRST change their mind, you're gravely mistaken. No matter what FIRST decides there will be people who are upset. They won't be gaining anything by changing the rules based on the remonstrations of some FIRSTers, they'd just be in the same boat as they are now. Give the complaining a rest, and put your emotion into something more fruitful (i.e. strategizing/designing/prototyping/building a robot to compete in the game that FIRST is putting on). Remember what Dean said about fairness? Think about how lucky you are to even be a part of this competition/family, and not live in some undeveloped nation without drinking water (for example).

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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gold
redbeard0531 & Ricksta121:
Keep your "improvements" or ideal changes in hand for the Team Forum or for any post season event that you might be organizing, but for now you're going to have to deal with what FIRST decides. If they want to allow for negative points, fine. If they unintentionally made people think that there was a possibility of getting negative points, fine. You're not the people making up the rules for the 2003 FRC, and you're going to have to deal with the rules just like the rest of us. So what's the point in complaining so much? If you think that a petition (wether it be on the CD Forums or emailed directly to FIRST) will make FIRST change their mind, you're gravely mistaken. No matter what FIRST decides there will be people who are upset. They won't be gaining anything by changing the rules based on the remonstrations of some FIRSTers, they'd just be in the same boat as they are now. Give the complaining a rest, and put your emotion into something more fruitful (i.e. strategizing/designing/prototyping/building a robot to compete in the game that FIRST is putting on). Remember what Dean said about fairness? Think about how lucky you are to even be a part of this competition/family, and not live in some undeveloped nation without drinking water (for example).

-Bill Gold

But you couldn't be more wrong.

FIRST does listen to those who complain, very much so. Infact, last year many teams broke the tape measure rule. So many that FIRST simply threw out the rule, but they didn't just throw it out in the build period, they actualy threw it out at the regionals! After the build period. And they do gain something by changin this rule. Dean said we are "competing" with sports. And if we are to compete with them we MUST change this rule to be more spectator friendly(note that dean stressed the "spectator friendly" stuff alot). So, maybe you, as well as FIRST, should rethink things.

Also, I do not believe this to be intentful. I believe that the wording that allows for negative points was a mistake, and once noticed will most likely be rectified.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gope

Also, I do not believe this to be intentful. I believe that the wording that allows for negative points was a mistake, and once noticed will most likely be rectified.
Normally, I would agree with you, but FIRST very obviously knew that the changes changed the entire scoring system. Why else would they put a disclaimer on there saying "This bullet is worth reading several times as there are some subtle and very interesting results and consequences?"

As for the whole petition thing: grow up. Life's not fair nor is it within your control. Deal with it. Personally, I think these rules simplify things and make life a whole lot easier. Regardless, I'll back FIRST in anything they choose to do. If you don't like the rules FIRST made, go build a Battle Bot. After all, rules don't get much simpler than "last robot standing wins".
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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:45 PM
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I think everyone should just chill because I'm sure FIRST is already in the process of fixing the negative point wording
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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:48 PM
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anyone remember Dean's speach on fairness? If you can't understand the game, it's not fair to you, big deal. If the spectator's can't from your explination.. big deal..

Quote:
The object of the game is to collect and stack containers on your team’s side of the field. Each legal container
on your side of the field counts as one point. The final score is the result of multiplying the number of
containers in the highest stack by the total number of legal containers in your alliance’s scoring zone. An
additional 25 points is awarded for a robot that is positioned on the top of the ramp platform.
The only time in which a score will be reduced is when the highest bin is held by an opponent in the alliances zone. The majority of matches will probably end in a fight for king of the hill. It is not to a robot's advantage to be off the hill and reducing the bin score of their opponent when they could be on the hill.

The petition, and no disrespect to the poster or poster's team, is a, to put it bluntly, stupid idea. The rule's don't need to be changed and won't be changed.


Need to explain the game to your mother?

A height of a stack of bins in your teams zone times the number of bins minus the stack. Almost every match will end this way. If they ask: Why didn't that add up? then explain an opponent's robot holding a bin above the stack reduces the multiplier.

That's just about the extent of it. No worries, No petition needed.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 04:58 PM
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Unhappy think about who you are upset about

I think it was a perfectly fair thing for FIRST to do... People are just upset because they fear others are going to play the game to intentionally give negative points to others. That could happen to all situation... No matter what FIRST decide, some people will find some way to make the worst out of it. Teams could potentially do a lot of things to ruin the fun of the game... But I don't see anyone complain about those other things.

There's no reason to be upset about FIRST when all you are worrying about is others playing dirty and giving you a negative score. It's ok to be upset, just make sure you know what exactly you are upset about, and don't complain to the wrong person that have nothing to do with the things you fear: the dark side of human nature.

The whole point of the game is still to make sure you get as many points as possible, as well as your opponent... Otherwise you are just not playing the game right. If you choose to give your opponents negative points... Then I am afraid you got nothing out of the program, and you are just wasting everyone's time and resources participating in a program you got nothing worth while out of. The choice is your's.

I will have to agree with Bill and rbayer, simply because I know FIRST is really really busy once kickoff started, and they all their energy are spent in dealing with the kit of parts, and making sure the competitions happen they way they intend to. They will listen to teams all right, just when they setup a time specifically for talking to teams at team forum. During build period... I am pretty sure the FIRST staff ignor most complain people have that's not threatening the ideal of the competition.
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Unread 01-12-2003, 05:03 PM
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im in agreeance with that. the rules are out of control. number of boxesi n stack * number of boxes in floor. bonus for on ramp. i hope first reads all of this.

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Unread 01-12-2003, 05:20 PM
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According to the rules, if an opponent's robot is holding a box on your side it counts as part of the stack. if this is the case, could you touch the robot and negate the whole stack and the negetive points?
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Unread 01-12-2003, 05:25 PM
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add an option that says, "No, keep the rules the same. FIRST wont change the rules and nobody will get negative points."



petitions wont work during the season. FIRST has better things to be worrying about. if you dont like something, bring it up at the post season team forums. otherwise if you dont like how the rules are now, you are out of luck
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