When do mentors go too far?

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by Not2B

But I do wonder about a team when I see 3 engineers fixing a broken robot in the pits with NO (zero) students even in range. How can that be good? (I'm serious - is that good? A working, dominating robot makes the team feel good or what?)

See this goes against what you said earlier... about judging how their students are inspired. And this is one brief second that you see a team in their pits. I can remember a handful or more times where this was the case in our pits. In general, it was the mentors just testing something out, or tweaking something. Why, do you ask, were there no students in range?? Well, lets see, our starving drive team was off getting food, half our kids were scouting, others were off getting buttons or checking out other teams... etc etc... sometimes, the mentors step in to let the kids go have fun. The competition is about MUCH more than just the robot. If kids are glued to the robot all of the time, then they miss the rest of it... the other fun stuff, what makes FIRST, FIRST.

And to back up the argument, there are a lot of very tiny teams, and with resources spread thin, sometimes its up to the mentors to make the tweaks.

That said, I remember all the important stuff being done by our students... I dont think a single mentor could tell you how the transmission was assembled, but two of our students could! When we had emergency drive train changes, tightening of the chains, changing of axles, the mentors threw up their hands and claimed ignorance as our students took over.

(This is general now, not to Not2B)
Complain if there is a mentor on your team who bullies you out of the way, complain if a mentor on another team is mean to you, but dont judge how other teams work by what you see in the pits, or what you "hear" from other teams. With anticipation high, struggles for recognition, different views on inspiration, there are a lot of accusations and assumptions. But teams that keep coming back are the ones that are actually inspiring students... so teams that are still around are doing something right.. regardless of student or mentor built bots.

[Not2B]

I see I struck a nerve... and I do admit my question was loaded. Sorry about that. And of course the little teams can use all the help they can get. I don't count chain tightening, battery changes, screw tightening, and general maintenance as working on the robot. And for the record, I would never, and have never, judged a team on a few minute glance in the pits. That's not very informed. (Explain later)

I guess in a round about way, you answered my question. For many teams, having a highly tuned, very nice robot IS inspiring. I guess I'm trying to understand it all. The mentors on our team are there to give advice, act as a sounding board for ideas, lend a hand if asked, and help guide the students on the right path when they know what end result they want, but don't know the direction. As a result, sometimes they make mistakes. We try to help them understand what went wrong, how it's not the end of the world, how to correct it, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Here is why I'm in conflict - we had a very good year (by our standards). And the students are more energetic and "inspired" than ever before. Would a REALLY good robot (without the rookie mistakes, etc...) be even better (more inspiring)? Or are they inspired because of what they were able to do on their own, with the little pit stops of disaster (and learning) along the way? My team has answered this for me (let them do it, they don't mind the mistakes.) But it's still something I think about.

.... oh yes. The team that was doing work with no students?! I've been watching a handful (I have 6 on my list) of different style teams for the last 4 years - to try and benchmark our own team. I realize that sometimes mentors can't help themselves, or the students are busy working on something else. But when it's consistent over a 4 year span, at regionals and championships, with a large team, then I have to ask - Is that a good thing? Maybe it is, I don't know. And just so you don't think I'm down on the fancy teams, several of the teams that I initially thought were "too good to be true" or "too mentor dominated" turn out to be really well run, and really inspiring. This is based on talking to mentors, parents, and students as well as years of observations. NOT a few seconds in the pits. That would be silly.

[EricH]

Our team is one of the 50/50 teams, and it has worked very well. I admit that things may be different on a large team, or different on any team for that matter, but our mentors and students work well together. The frame was designed, cut and welded by engineers and sponsors. The robot was designed in general by the team including students and mentors. Students did prototyping with mentor advice.

Even a team that has more mentors than students may have students running a part of the team that nobody sees, and the same thing goes the other way. I am a student. I come up with ideas, run weight checks, design the scouting sheet, and scout. Mentors help and finalize. This is behind the scenes. In the machine shop, one of our sponsors who is also a mentor does all the major cutting and shaving jobs, partly because no student knows how to do it.

What I am saying is, don't judge a team by the visible proportion of mentors to students. Don't jump to conclusions. Better yet, respect the team for being what they are. Every team has a different way of doing things, and who are we to judge them for it?

[the_short1]

yea..i definately saw some pits with only adults in the pits working on the robot.. . not a student to be seen.. .but . . you know .. theirs nothing we can really do about that..

and i am also insulted by the post regarding the 3 teems at GTR. . they are awsome teams and i personally have visited their pits.. they are not a 100% student team, but far from mentor only. . . and FESSTRONICS was an AWSOME alliance (at GTR) we were glad to have them! and 1114 did a good job!. . i dont remember 1503

[Starke340]

I like how #340 is run:

The students design and build the robot, where the mentors listen and keep things under control. They help guide were they are needed, but generally stay hands off. In the pits, a scout from another team would come up to a mentor watching the pit and say "hi, can I ask you some questions?" The mentor would say "I do not know anything, go ask one of them," pointing to the mass of students working on the robot.

I love it. It gives the students on the team such an opportunity to learn by hands on. They learn how things work and are made.

This year is was found that we made a more complicated robot then we needed to. However, now we say "if the kids want to build it again, we will."

[GillSt.Bernards]

Smaller and newer teams often need the mentors more than the larger and older teams. My team counts on our mentors a lot but we work on our robot and add our own ideas. My team only has about 5 members and it is only our second year. we really need the help.