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 Chief Delphi Moment of inertia and turning performance
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#1
04-01-2012, 09:39 PM
 icyplanetnhc The infamous Haoch AKA: Haochuan FRC #0846 (The Funky Monkeys) Team Role: Alumni Join Date: Jun 2010 Rookie Year: 2009 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 7
Moment of inertia and turning performance

Smooth turning has been a challenge for our robot this year. We noticed that unlike our 6-wheel tank drivetrain, several teams have been able to create 6WD with butter-smooth turning. We recognized that our off-center CG degraded our turning abilities. However, I feel that there should be another cause that adds to the "jumpiness" of our turns. My prime suspect is the moment of inertia, both about the turning axis and the middle wheels. Suppose that you have a robot with a fairly well-centered CG. Will large or small moment of inertia about the turning axis result in smoother turning performance?
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Last edited by icyplanetnhc : 04-02-2012 at 05:27 PM.
#2
04-01-2012, 09:51 PM
 Peck worse then failing: proving murphy FRC #1619 (Up-A-Creek Robotics) and FTC # 4633) Team Role: College Student Join Date: Mar 2012 Rookie Year: 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 237
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

The moment of inertia for the robot is a complex system. (Assuming from here a simple normal system) A low moment of inertia results in a lower rotational momentum and therefor a greater ability to start and stop turning. A high moment of inertia results in a higher rotational momentum and therefor a greater desire to keep turning at the same rate.

If you only want to have a consistent, smooth turn, a high moment of inertia is what you want BUT at the cost of responsiveness and control.

also keep in mind that your CG is only ideally placed when centered if your robot turns exactly around the CG.

Finally: the choppy turning may be because of your programing or your power transfer method.
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Last edited by Peck : 04-01-2012 at 09:58 PM.
#3
04-01-2012, 09:51 PM
 MrForbes Registered User AKA: The mentor formerly known as squirrel FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Feb 2006 Rookie Year: 2006 Location: Sierra Vista AZ Posts: 4,794
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Usually it's a matter of traction vs. center wheel drop. If you have a bit too much traction, or not enough center wheel drop, then it's kind of hard to turn.
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#4
04-01-2012, 09:51 PM
 Ether systems engineer (retired) no team Join Date: Nov 2009 Rookie Year: 1969 Location: US Posts: 4,582
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Quote:
 Originally Posted by icyplanetnhc Suppose that you have a robot with a fairly well-centered CG. Will large or small moment of inertia about the turning axis result in smoother turning performance?
My guess is moment of inertia plays a very minor role.

The biggest factors affecting turning for a drop-center 6WD are

- amount of drop of the center wheels

- wheel tread material

- type of flooring

- wheelbase/trackwidth ratio

- location of center of mass

#5
04-01-2012, 09:52 PM
 Alan Anderson Software Architect FRC #0045 (TechnoKats) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Feb 2004 Rookie Year: 2004 Location: Kokomo, Indiana Posts: 7,051
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

For wheels having similar traction, wheelbase length is the primary factor in how easily a robot turns. The two typical ways to eliminate bouncy turns on a 6-wheel drivebase are to 1) get the center of mass directly over slightly-lowered center wheels, and 2) use omniwheels at the corners to remove friction in the sideways direction.

Last edited by Alan Anderson : 04-02-2012 at 08:39 AM. Reason: specify 6-wheel drivebase
#6
04-01-2012, 10:09 PM
 Andrew Lawrence Learning something new every day AKA: Andrew Lawrence FRC #0256 (Robo Rams) Team Role: Tactician Join Date: Jan 2011 Rookie Year: 2011 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 2,777
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

No lie. At last year's inspection, we weighed in a tiny bit over the weight limit. Me, wanting to tidy the robot, trimmed all the ends of the zipties we used and, miraculously, we weighed in exactly at 120 pounds!

We used a lot of zip ties that year....
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#7
04-01-2012, 10:13 PM
 Gregor Looking for a Team AKA: Gregor Browning no team Team Role: Student Join Date: Jan 2012 Rookie Year: 2012 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,233
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 No lie. At last year's inspection, we weighed in a tiny bit over the weight limit. Me, wanting to tidy the robot, trimmed all the ends of the zipties we used and, miraculously, we weighed in exactly at 120 pounds! We used a lot of zip ties that year....
Wrong thread maybe Andrew?

Lol at your story anyway
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#8
04-02-2012, 01:22 AM
 Brandon_L Sometimes I give myself the crepes AKA: Brandon Liatys FRC #2495 (Hamilton West Robotics) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Jan 2008 Rookie Year: 2007 Location: Hamilton, NJ Posts: 859
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Quote:
 Originally Posted by squirrel Usually it's a matter of traction vs. center wheel drop. If you have a bit too much traction, or not enough center wheel drop, then it's kind of hard to turn.
Last year we had problems with our 6 wheel kitbot drive. The center wheel wasn't dropped enough, so pretty much all 6 wheels were on the ground. It was extremely jumpy and hard to turn. We solved this in the offseason by switching to the grip wheels in the rear, powered, removing the middle wheels all together, and throwing free spinning omnis on the front. Worked great. And we learned our lesson, this year we have an 8wd that drives like a beast.
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#9
04-02-2012, 01:47 AM
 BJT uh, should that be smoking? AKA: Ben Thorsgard FRC #0876 (Thunder Robotics) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Mar 2007 Rookie Year: 2005 Location: Northwood ND Posts: 178
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

We usually do a 6wd with a 1/8 inch drop center and roughtop tread on all wheels. Our robots always turn smooth as silk but this years robot didn't turn well at all. I think our weight was too centered over the middle wheels. we were able to bolt a 7 pound weight to the back of the robot which completely cured it. With a 1/8 drop center those front wheels are really close to the carpet and I think you need to keep them from grabbing as much as possible for smooth turning.
#10
04-02-2012, 10:26 AM
 Andy A. Getting old FRC #0095 Team Role: Coach Join Date: Jun 2001 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 909
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

The prime suspect for a 'jumpy' 6 wheel drivetrain would be a combination of traction materials and CG in relation to the center wheels. Also, it's possible for a small center drop to be overwhelmed by the frame flexing enough to allow the corners wheels to see more weight then is ideal.

However there are instances where turning problems can be related to control setup or PID loop tuning, and not just hardware. Are you using a PID loop on your drive train? Are you using one joystick drive? Two? A gamepad? Simple mistakes in the axis mixing or PID terms can result in really wonky turning behavior.

It can also be helpful, though not at all necessary, to use Jaguars on drive motors. They have slightly better performance that can help improve turning at low speeds. The victor/jaguar thing is still a touchy subject, I know, but this is one thing the jags really do have going for them.
#11
04-02-2012, 10:59 AM
 BJC Simplicty is Complicated! AKA: Bryan Culver FRC #0033 (The Killer Bees) Team Role: Alumni Join Date: Jan 2010 Rookie Year: 2009 Location: Kettering/Greenville Posts: 639
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Our team has done a lot of personal testing and evaluation on the top teams in the league and we have found that the CoG and tortional stiffness is generally what sets their robot's drivetrain apart from most others.

CoG, contrary to popular belief we have found that setting the CoG far to one side on a 6wd is best. A 6wd performs best when it is actually a 4wd with 2 extra wheels. Placing the CoG in the middle generally results in the turning point of the robot changing in the middle of the turn as the robot accelerates/decelerates and the outer wheels alernating touching the ground. This is especially important because a 6wd does not turn about the middle wheels but rather between the middle wheels and whichever pair of outer wheels happens to be touching the ground. So by limiting rocking as much as possible performace greatly increases.

Tortional stiffness is absolutely critical to a good 6wd. In 2008 we discovered that without a very stiff chassis the opposite outer wheels will touch down essentially creating a long wheelbase while turning. This will also seriously limits turning.

Edit: I forgot to add, an 8wd has mathmatically much better turning characteristics than a 6wd provided the wheels are properly spaced.

But don't take my word for it, if you don't believe me run some experiments.
Regards, Bryan
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Last edited by BJC : 04-02-2012 at 11:08 AM.
#12
04-02-2012, 11:28 AM
 Nathan Streeter FIRST Fan(atic) FRC #1519 (Mechanical MAYHEM) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Feb 2008 Rookie Year: 2006 Location: Bedford, New Hampshire Posts: 208
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

From watching a few of your matches on youtube, the symptoms (rocking "hops" when turning, with size of rock roughly proportional to speed of turn) seem very much like those of a drivetrain with too much resistance to turning, the result of having too much traction at the corners of a drivebase with a long wheelbase and narrow track.

Some ways to reduce this issue:
- Reduce traction at corners by:
* Making corner tires less grippy (slick wheels, or something less extreme)
* Making corner tires move sideways easily (90 degree omnis)
* Reducing weight on corners (increasing "rocker" and/or stiffening frame so that sag doesn't eliminate "rocker")
* Reducing weight on corner wheels by centering weight over center wheels
- Shorten wheelbase and/or widen track to get a footprint more advantageous for turning

I wouldn't recommend a rocker greater than 1/8"... If putting the center wheels 1/8" lower isn't sufficient, look at your frame sag. Then consider the lateral grippiness of your corner tires and where your CoG is.

Note that you don't want the robot to turn without any resistance, as it'd be nearly uncontrollable; however, you don't want so much resistance that you're hopping at even fairly low-speed turns... Some teams prefer just using omnis at the corners, while others prefer using rocker, or a more advantageous wheelbase/track ratio. Personally, I prefer a combination of the rocker, CoG, and wheelbase/track ratio to provide a drive base that goes straight naturally but still turns well and won't be spun around by a defender.
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#13
04-02-2012, 11:28 AM
 Brandon Holley Chase perfection. Catch excellence. AKA: Let's bring CD back to the way it used to be FRC #0125 (NU-TRONs, Team #11 Alumni (GO MORT)) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Jan 2004 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,302
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Building on what Bryan said...

CoG is a very overlooked thing in 6WD/8WD design. Its important to really consider where the approximate CoG of your robot will be as its being designed. This becomes especially true as you begin to build taller structures on top of your drive system. Weight higher up will tend to amplify the issues you are seeing with turning performance.

-Brando
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#14
04-02-2012, 11:44 AM
 Jared341 Congrats to the Champs! AKA: Jared Russell FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy) Team Role: Engineer Join Date: Nov 2002 Rookie Year: 2001 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,410
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Torsional stiffness and a low CoG are absolutely critical to smooth turning in a dropped-center, skid steer drivetrain.
#15
04-02-2012, 11:57 AM
 Ether systems engineer (retired) no team Join Date: Nov 2009 Rookie Year: 1969 Location: US Posts: 4,582
Re: Moment of inertia and turning performance

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter Note that you don't want the robot to turn without any resistance, as it'd be nearly uncontrollable;
Segways turn without any* resistance.

A 6WD with omnis at all four corners is like a Segway with training wheels.

*well, for all practical purposes

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