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Unread 06-23-2002, 09:13 PM
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UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by nuts4first.

Engineer on team from sponsored by .

Posted on 12/3/99 9:04 AM MST



I like spy photos and rumors just as much as the next guy, but I'm getting the sense
that anyone involved in the CDI will have an unfair advantage over the rest of us!!!

Anyone at CDI using the new Innovation FIRST Control System has 'one up' on the
rest of us. It's obvious, with photos and discussion all over this web site, that it is
in use and out side the realm of FIRST's control (whom we trust to keep it fair for
all of us). With their current experience, I bet CDI participants can wire up the
control system in their sleep! In January the rest of us will have to work from
scratch. :+( Here we go again, another year of the haves and have nots.

At the very lease if this is going to be allowed, the rest of us should get a
manual so we know what to expect!



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Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by James Phillips.

Coach on team #284, The Crew, from Career Technology Center of Lackawanna County.

Posted on 12/3/99 10:48 AM MST


In Reply to: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by nuts4first on 12/3/99 9:04 AM MST:




I would have to agree with you! It is NOT fair that the CDI participants get a month head start on the rest of the field. I think that your idea of everyone getting the info is imperative for the gracious professionalism expected in the contest.


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Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by Greg Mills.

Engineer on team #16, Baxter Bomb Squad, from Mountain Home and Baxter Healthcare.

Posted on 12/5/99 10:06 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by James Phillips on 12/3/99 10:48 AM MST:



:
: Teams that go to the CDI have an advantage because they took it. That is the additional time working as a team, inspiring students, letting them know what this is all about. Even if they learn more about the contols (which as Mike indicated wasn't the case) that is secondary to the benefits of going through the process. CDI is a definite advantage to the teams that went, but it is not an unfair advantage. We were involved with Lego League last Saturday or we would have loved to have been in the field. FIRST will never be able to 'level the field' so we each should take our advantages where we can and live with our disadvantages.


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Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by Lora Knepper.

Student on team #69, HYPER, from Quincy Public Schools and The Gillette Company.

Posted on 12/15/99 3:05 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by Greg Mills on 12/5/99 10:06 AM MST:



I'm torn in between on this issue. CDI participants should not be getting an advantage over the rest of us, the kickoff should be the starting point for ALL teams. However, if Innovation First feels testing in neccesary on the control units, they should be distributed to ALL teams, not just those able to attend the CDI. I think Mr. Mills went a bit too far in saying that FIRST cannot ever level the playing field, and we should learn to live with it. Yes, this is a competition, and a lot is at stake, but more than that, it is an EXPERIENCE, a chance to do something incredible with hundreds of other teams across the nation. We shouldn't lose sight of that, even in the heat of competiton. CDI has an unfair advantage? Fine then show the ability of you team, by proving you don't need an advantage to build a superior machine. Let's forget this nonsense, and remember that in all of the hundreds of teams, we are really only one team. The FIRST team.


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This was Win-Win

Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 12/15/99 4:51 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by Lora Knepper on 12/15/99 3:05 PM MST:



This was a win-win situation.

Innovation FIRST wanted a real world trial for their radios & controllers.

We wanted to break the tethers that always limited what we could do with the Chief Delphi Invitational.

The CDI was a success and Innovation FIRST (and FIRST) gets to sleep that much better at night knowing that they have a rock solid system that has been somewhat tested in a FIRST-type environment.

The Advantage Gained from teams that participated in the CDI is simply the fact that they were able to touch the controllers while others can only view photos.

Let's be clear on 2 points

1) ONLY INNOVATION FIRST WAS ALLOWED TO PROGRAM THE CONTROLLERS

2) THE ONLY WIRING THAT WAS ALLOWED WAS CONNECTING A SPEED CONTROLLER (OR A RELAY) TO A MOTOR AND PLUGGING IN A JOYSTICK OR FOUR.

So, nobody from the CDI knows any more than you folks about how to program these beauties or how to wire the sensors or how the dashboard works or anything else of real competitive advantage.

You talk about all FIRST teams being on the same team. I agree with you.

I would go further though. I would say that EVERYONE on the FIRST team is better off because of what Innovation FIRST learned on the beta-version controllers they let us use at the Chief Delphi Invitational.

If this advantage for the entire FIRST community was purchased at the relatively small price of a few teams actually touching a controller a few weeks before the rest of the FIRST community, then I think it was worth the price.

Joe J.

P.S. By the way, folks familiar with the CDI may see some of its better parts reflected in the 2000 FIRST Competition.

Before people start to talk about yet another advantage to CDI teams, let me say that FIRST is a great organization that learns from many sources. If they gleened an idea or two from the CDI and decided to implement them for 2000, should we object and insist that they wait until 2001 in an effort to make if fair for ALL teams?

I don't think FIRST is farther toward our shared goal that way. Do you?


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Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by Michael Martus.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.

Posted on 12/4/99 5:23 PM MST


In Reply to: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by nuts4first on 12/3/99 9:04 AM MST:




Totally NOT SO!

The controls were beta stripped down versions.
We used two Victors to run to variable
And spikes ( relays ) to turn on/off motors. That is it.

Teams were NOT allowed to program in fact the unit was disabled in many functions to prevent programming.

We put all components in a large box and wired the controller to the victors and spikes. All teams did was put wire connectors on and decided which motor to turn on or off.

No ONE-UP here. All they got was a physical look while you got a jpeg. Hey, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The entire FIRST community benefits beacause Innovation First was testing and de-bugging the units. Testing and using diagonistic equipment in crunch time was the order of the day. Several 'Bugs' were found that may have made it to final production. The issue of teams 'crosstalk' was tested and processes were defined.

No manual was needed because teams could do nothing with them.

BTW these units look to be great for 2000 competition because with a stock program anyone can use them.

ALSO the new diagonistic tool allows the technician to monitor functions including battery power at the touch of a button. No more ' I had radio trouble, lets re-run the match', as they will know 100% if that was the case.

Sorry no advantage here!

Also your team could have joined us. Several from a distance did. Beatty, WildStang, Strikers, Kokomo, Zeeland were a few of the teams. Ask them for an evaluation of One-Up!






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Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system

Posted by Andy Grady.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #42, P.A.R.T.S, from Alvirne High School and Daniel Webster College.

Posted on 12/4/99 7:08 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: UNFAIR ADVANTAGE for CDI and new control system posted by Michael Martus on 12/4/99 5:23 PM MST:



Im not competing at the CDI, but i have to agree with Mike anyway. Im glad that they are testing a beta version before throwing the thing in the kit, we had various control problems last year and it makes me sleep a little easier now that I know that they are testing this thing so that we don't have yet even more problems than in previous years. And if you think about it, what better way to test the thing than at a competition of similar structure. You cant make an omlet without breaking a few eggs. So I say, more power to ya Innovation First! I cant wait to get a hold of those controls
Good Luck All,
Andy Grady, DWC/Alvirne HS


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