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Unread 03-11-2012, 03:37 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Sacramento isn't a "defensive" regional as much as it is a "can't-play-offense-ive" regional. The average scores over the years speak for themselves, it's not like all those teams go into the competition intending to play defense. I expect a few teams to do well, but scores will be below average compared to other regionals.

-Mike
I would actually have to agree. For many teams this is their first regional so they use it to practice and make sure everything is working. That is why scores are normally so low. But from what I have noticed, there are a lot of teams this year that are stepping up their game, and I think scores may be a bit higher than in previous years.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 03:48 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Sacramento isn't a "defensive" regional as much as it is a "can't-play-offense-ive" regional. The average scores over the years speak for themselves, it's not like all those teams go into the competition intending to play defense. I expect a few teams to do well, but scores will be below average compared to other regionals.

-Mike
^This.

Not to sound rude, but SAC has never been a strong regional. Not to say there aren't strong teams there, but that there are a few decent teams, maybe one or two strong teams, and a bunch of average-class teams. In order to succeed as an average-class team in this regional, all you need to do is prevent one of the stronger teams from scoring, and you'll be chosen to be on the winning alliance. Because of this factor, many of the teams there focus more on becoming better year after year at defense, rather than becoming strong offensive bots. Therefore, when the teams from offensive SVR come this year, there will be a huge upset. Most of the standard defense used in this regional from previous years won't work against the offense-heavy SVR teams, and the average teams will be blown out of the water.

I hate to say it, but it's true. A team gets better by competing with teams better than them, and in an environment where A) there aren't too many strong teams, and B) it doesn't take much to defend against the few strong teams, the average-class teams don't get any better.

Maybe a little NorCal power is what the SAC regional needs to become the offensive regional it's destined to be.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 04:31 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

I agree that Davis is defensive not because of choice, but because of necessity. Our team (somehow) got chosen for eliminations despite the fact that our manipulator was broken, and ended up playing defense.

Given that I'm fairly new to FRC, is this defensive trend true for all early regional? Or is it just the unique dynamics of Davis? As stated above, there are few "powerhouse" teams, but it seems to me that this would be advantageous to mediocre offensive teams scoring, not resorting to defense.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 04:39 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
I agree that Davis is defensive not because of choice, but because of necessity. Our team (somehow) got chosen for eliminations despite the fact that our manipulator was broken, and ended up playing defense.

Given that I'm fairly new to FRC, is this defensive trend true for all early regional? Or is it just the unique dynamics of Davis? As stated above, there are few "powerhouse" teams, but it seems to me that this would be advantageous to mediocre offensive teams scoring, not resorting to defense.
Like I said above, SAC is a regional where you don't need to be a good scorer to succeed. Unfortunately, it's one of the only regionals like that. Because of the lack of strong scorers, team's have gotten into a trend of trying to be the best defensive robots at the regional, often making their goals be more oriented towards "making alliance xxxx score 1/2 of their normal score", instead of having goals of "scoring xxxx points". If you compare a team who can score well vs. a team who defends well, generally the scoring robot will be put into higher regard. If you put the same two robots in Sacramento, the defensive robot will be put into higher regard, since it seems a stronger defense has become more important than offense.

Is it the best option to make the new and surrounding teams stronger? No. Is it a bad idea? Maybe, maybe not. Look at it this way: How many teams have you seen who regularly go to Sacramento, a defense-heavy regional, make it to the finals of a championship division, or even Einstein, compared to the amount of teams that make it from offensive-strong regionals like SVR?

Good defense is always nice to have, but isn't worth it if what you're defending against isn't that strong in the first place. That's Sacramento in a sentence.

Let's see that change this year (971 is going to win it all, I'm calling it).
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Last edited by Andrew Lawrence : 03-11-2012 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Needed clarification (see underlined)
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Unread 03-11-2012, 05:11 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 View Post
Let's see that change this year (971 is going to win it all, I'm calling it).
Here is who I predict will be top 8.

1. 971
2. 1323
3. 100
4. 1868
5. 1671
6. 1678
7. 604
8. 115

971 will most likely choose 1868 because they have worked with each other in the past and they have the ability to practice with each other frequently because they are so close. 1323 has a history of declining to join the 1st seed and go for their own alliance so I could see 1323 going with 100
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Unread 03-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinGoneNuts View Post
Here is who I predict will be top 8.

1. 971
2. 1323
3. 100
4. 1868
5. 1671
6. 1678
7. 604
8. 115

971 will most likely choose 1868 because they have worked with each other in the past and they have the ability to practice with each other frequently because they are so close. 1323 has a history of declining to join the 1st seed and go for their own alliance so I could see 1323 going with 100
What? No 4159? Though 604 hasn't released their robot yet (come on Quixilver!), we can assume they'll get pretty high in the rankings. I've seen 115's robot, and it's pretty good as well. I don't know too much about 1671 and 1678. From the little I've seen/heard, 1868 will have a good robot, as always, though not as good as 971. Wildhats have a good robot this year, though they don't seem too good at scoring in their video, but that could (and most likely will) change at the event. 1323 is always good, but it looks like we'll be relying on RC to give out the info we're all looking for. Having collaborated with a championship winning team last year must mean they have something up their sleeves this year (maybe ANOTHER championship winning team *cough*254*cough*). 971 is going to beast up the competition, and I know this as a fact even though they haven't shown anything yet!

The only thing I see about this regional (and most other regionals) is that the majority of the robot designs are going to be the same. That's going to leave it up to a strong strategy to win the regional, and while those top 8 teams are very strong teams, it'll be the alliance with the most beneficial variation on design and strategy that will beat the rest.


On another topic, will we see any triple balances in SAC? I know a lot of powerhouse teams are going long this year, and though that doesn't mean it can't happen, it's going to be very unlikely.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 05:50 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 View Post
Look at it this way: How many teams have you seen from Sacramento, a defense-heavy regional, make it to the finals of a championship division, or even Einstein, compared to the amount of teams that make it from offensive-strong regionals like SVR?
From what I can remember/dig up...(I don't know much from pre-2003 and data is lacking, so there may some omissions).

Sacramento:
7 unique teams in 7 appearances
1 Division Finalist, 6 Division Champions, 2 World Finalists and 1 World Champion

1388 in 2004 (SAC Quarterfinalists, Curie Division Champions)
766 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
245 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SAC Finalists, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
330 in 2005 (SAC Semifinalists, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
56 in 2005 (SAC Finish?, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
1717 in 2009 (SAC Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)

Silicon Valley:
6 unique teams in 10 appearances
2 Division Finalists, 8 Division Champions, 2 World Finalists and 4 World Champions

254 in 2001 (SVR Champions, Archimedes Division Champions and World Finalists)
60 in 2002 (SVR Champions, Curie Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
190 in 2007 (SVR Champions, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
987 in 2007 (SVR Semifinalists, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
254 in 2008 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)
100 in 2008 (SVR Champions, Curie Division Finalists)
971 in 2009 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Champions)
254 in 2010 (SVR Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2011 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Champions)

It's not quite as lopsided as you might think, although SVR is clearly favored (and not just because of 254), especially considering the Sacramento 2005 "anomaly".
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Last edited by Nuttyman54 : 03-11-2012 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Edited to include 56 and 330
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Unread 03-11-2012, 05:58 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 View Post
From what I can remember/dig up...(I don't know much from pre-2003 and data is lacking, so there may some omissions).

Sacramento:
5 unique teams in 5 appearances
1 Division Finalist, 4 Division Champions and 1 World Finalist

1388 in 2004 (SAC Quarterfinalists, Curie Division Champions)
766 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
245 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SAC Finalists, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
1717 in 2009 (SAC Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)
2005 was such a huge outlier it's almost not worth including. It had an influx of out of state teams in that single year only. You've also forgotten 56 who went on to win Galileo and finish as Championship finalists.

I wonder if there has ever been a non-MSC event to feature 4 teams who would go on to Einstein in the same year.
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 View Post
From what I can remember/dig up...(I don't know much from pre-2003 and data is lacking, so there may some omissions).

Sacramento:
5 unique teams in 5 appearances
1 Division Finalist, 4 Division Champions and 1 World Finalist

1388 in 2004 (SAC Quarterfinalists, Curie Division Champions)
766 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
245 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SAC Finalists, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
1717 in 2009 (SAC Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)

Silicon Valley:
6 unique teams in 10 appearances
2 Division Finalists, 8 Division Champions, 2 World Finalists and 4 World Champions

254 in 2001 (SVR Champions, Archimedes Division Champions and World Finalists)
60 in 2002 (SVR Champions, Curie Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
190 in 2007 (SVR Champions, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
987 in 2007 (SVR Semifinalists, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
254 in 2008 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)
100 in 2008 (SVR Champions, Curie Division Finalists)
971 in 2009 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Champions)
254 in 2010 (SVR Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2011 (SVR Champions, Galileo Division Champions and World Champions)

It's not quite as lopsided as you might think, although SVR is clearly favored (and not just because of 254)
Wow. That's pretty cool! While only two teams on the SAC list still go there (1388 and 766), the other 3 winning teams haven't gone back to Sacramento since their victories, and for many it was their first time going.

I'll now revise my old statement to say "How many teams who regularly go to Sacramento make it to the finals of a division at the championships, compared to Silicon Valley" (We can even leave 254 out of this, if you want. )
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Unread 03-11-2012, 06:07 PM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
2005 was such a huge outlier it's almost not worth including. It had an influx of out of state teams in that single year only. You've also forgotten 56 who went on to win Galileo and finish as Championship finalists.

I wonder if there has ever been a non-MSC event to feature 4 teams who would go on to Einstein in the same year.
Thanks, edited for completeness. I didn't even remember they attended, and FIRST's site has no data for SAC 2005, so I only looked up the teams I could remember by number.
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
2005 was such a huge outlier it's almost not worth including. It had an influx of out of state teams in that single year only. You've also forgotten 56 who went on to win Galileo and finish as Championship finalists.
And both of you are forgetting the team that picked 56. 330 won Newton and Einstein in 2005, after taking a semifinalist spot in Sacramento. But, they haven't been back to Sac since.
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I wonder if there has ever been a non-MSC event to feature 4 teams who would go on to Einstein in the same year.
To answer this question, the 2004 Buckeye regional had teams 340, 67, 1126, and 1038, who all made Einstein that year.
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Unread 03-12-2012, 03:13 AM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

We can't wait for SAC,

1323 has been itching to have a chance to play with 971/604, especially after the Throwdown/comps last year. We'd like to get a regional win with them sometime soon!

604 and 971's robots are very well done, I honestly can't wait to see both of them perform.

-RC
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Unread 03-12-2012, 03:29 AM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 View Post
From what I can remember/dig up...(I don't know much from pre-2003 and data is lacking, so there may some omissions).

Sacramento:
7 unique teams in 7 appearances
1 Division Finalist, 6 Division Champions, 2 World Finalists and 1 World Champion

1388 in 2004 (SAC Quarterfinalists, Curie Division Champions)
766 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
245 in 2005 (SAC Champions, Archimedes Division Champions)
254 in 2005 (SAC Finalists, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
330 in 2005 (SAC Semifinalists, Newton Division Champions and World Champions)
56 in 2005 (SAC Finish?, Galileo Division Champions and World Finalists)
1717 in 2009 (SAC Champions, Galileo Division Finalists)
That 2005 sacramento anomaly was a great regional. While waiting for Einstein to start,I was amused that the tunnel where they had the division champions wait was pretty much a Sacramento regional reunion.

I really wish I could visit Sacramento but alas I am now in Anaheim. I look forward to what 1323 and 971 are cooking up this year. I hope my data plan will hold up at Long Beach.

Hey RC, is 1323 and 973 collaborating again this year? Sorry if i missed it mentioned elsewhere.
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Unread 03-12-2012, 04:30 AM
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Re: Sacramento Regional 2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sheridan View Post
That 2005 sacramento anomaly was a great regional. While waiting for Einstein to start,I was amused that the tunnel where they had the division champions wait was pretty much a Sacramento regional reunion.

I really wish I could visit Sacramento but alas I am now in Anaheim. I look forward to what 1323 and 971 are cooking up this year. I hope my data plan will hold up at Long Beach.

Hey RC, is 1323 and 973 collaborating again this year? Sorry if i missed it mentioned elsewhere.
I think you'll be quite surprised by our bot this year.

As for 1323/973, we are not this year. But 973's robot is a work of art. I honestly can't wait to see it, HEARD a ton about it.

-RC
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