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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-13-2012, 08:35 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday View Post
Not to derail, but anyone care to explain the infamous robots in 2007 and 2008? I would love to learn about them.
In 2007, you scored endgame points by being atop your partners--in every other situation, it involved a ramp or lifting device. Back during build, I'd asked Q&A about starting the match with one partner atop the other...and given two robots that otherwise couldn't contribute to the match, WildStang took advantage of the ruling to score 30 match-winning points. The next Tuesday, the GDC reversed their ruling and banned it going forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamMullen View Post
I think I missed something. Why did they ban 190's design? It didn't seem to make them more effective than any of the other robots there.
As I remember, 190's issue was that the robot was ruled to cross the lane dividers and finish lines in the wrong sequence.
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Unread 03-13-2012, 08:49 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
It was explicitly banned via Q&A before the competition season started, and then later clarified.
I've seen Team 190's 2008 controversy mentioned several times in separate threads this year. I would like to correct some common errors:

The Q&A in question was the exact opposite, it seemed to indicate the design was legal before the season started, and was clarified after the SECOND regional to clarify that it was illegal. The Q&A question was posted in build week 2 by Team 2158, not Team 190.

190 presented their interpretation to members of the GDC and two regional head refs at the regional competitions.

I do not wish to derail this thread any more than it has been, so if anyone is interested in further details or the exact Q&A I am referring to, you can PM me. I do not know if it's still accessible online.
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Last edited by Nuttyman54 : 03-13-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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Unread 03-13-2012, 10:31 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

I wasn't going to post this until later, but the insane CPU usage I've seen this season has prompted me to release this now. I'll do a more formal write up of this in a few days.

Basically, we found ourselves with robot code running near 97% all the time, and it was really messing with our timing. I looked through some of the deep internals of LabVIEW, and found that it's actually quite inefficient in VI scheduling (assuming RT is the same; the documentation did not indicate any differences between LV desktop and LV RT) - In a nutshell, LabVIEW is running a tasking system for each VI, and queuing VI's to run and such.

There are ways to improve efficiency (for example, simple VI's can be set to Subroutine mode which optimizes the call, or you can optimize it further by setting re-entrant VI's to be inlined into calling VI's at compile time). Since you can't use Subroutine priority for any call that causes the VI to be taken off of the execution queue because it locks the thread, you can't contain any asynchronous statements (FPGA write, Wait, loops, etc.).

In my experience with the WPI library, I found that some specific systems were horribly unoptimized, requiring as many as 11 VI calls (in addition to the high-level call which the user sees) to set a motor. Times 10 motors, that's over 120 VI executions every 20ms to handle the acts of scaling a decimal to U8 and passing it to the FPGA. The Motor library was the worst, as the MotorControl library passed data down into the PWM library which passed data down into the FPGA-PWM library, and every action contained a VI who's only purpose was to change the dev ref bundle to match the lower level library's bundle type.

I optimized the WPI Motor Set to remove all unnecessary VI calls, and inlined all of the scaling math into the top-level VI. In the process, I removed all of the CAN code, as we don't use CAN. The new VI only has two VI calls. I did the same with the Analog Read and Servo Set VI's, but the gains are marginal for those compared to the Motor Set VI.

The big picture: With the modifications of this VI, we saved approx. 25% CPU load. With the Analog and Servo (not posted), we saved an additional 6% CPU. All numbers were taken with temporarily running code, with the same VI front panels open, using the RT Get System CPU Loads VI called every 1000ms and displaying the information to the front panel.

This VI is a drop-in replacement for WPI Set Motor for all teams using PWM. No CAN support exists or is planned. Use at your own risk; we ran this at Kettering without issue.
Attached Files
File Type: vi SimpleSetMotor.vi (33.4 KB, 42 views)
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:32 AM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by apalrd View Post
I wasn't going to post this until later, but the insane CPU usage I've seen this season has prompted me to release this now. I'll do a more formal write up of this in a few days.
That's pretty sweet. No way we're using it without an off-season vetting period, but for the future that could be awfully handy, especially for those of us still using an 8-slot CRio!
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Unread 03-14-2012, 03:58 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by apalrd View Post
The big picture: With the modifications of this VI, we saved approx. 25% CPU load. With the Analog and Servo (not posted), we saved an additional 6% CPU. All numbers were taken with temporarily running code, with the same VI front panels open, using the RT Get System CPU Loads VI called every 1000ms and displaying the information to the front panel.
These are some really good observations - I've spent a good portion of the last few meetings trying to optimize our code and get CPU usage down. I'll be sure to look through that VI and play with it in the upcoming days. I think it can make a sizable difference.

(You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to apalrd again.)
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:27 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Not to (slightly) derail the thread again, @FRCTeams (Bill Miller's Twitter) tweeted the following about 15 minutes ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by @FRCTeams
Attention FRC Teams be on the lookout for a Special Message / Team update from the GDC,,,spread the word#omgrobots
Any guesses?
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:32 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karibou View Post
Not to (slightly) derail the thread again, @FRCTeams (Bill Miller's Twitter) tweeted the following about 15 minutes ago:



Any guesses?
They already released the team update.

Quote:
The Coopertition Bridge in Rebound Rumble is this year’s method of fostering Coopertition and Gracious Professionalism among students while inspiring an appreciation of science and technology. The white bridge's purpose is to motivate participating players, teams and alliances to collaborate with other players, teams and alliances (even in the heat of competition) by rewarding them for working together. Coopertition and Gracious Professionalism are tenets of FIRST – they are part of what makes FIRST different and wonderful; all FIRST participants, teams and alliances should strive to exercise those principals at every given opportunity. To quote Woodie, “FIRST does not celebrate being an incompetent jerk. FIRST does celebrate high-quality, well-informed work done in a manner that leaves everyone feeling valued.” In other words, bullying, coercion, and unsportsmanlike conduct have no place in FIRST. We expect all teams to always try their best to accomplish the tasks at hand, and always push themselves to achieve even greater successes. Best of luck to all of you as you continue to balance the real-life struggles of competing against each other while cooperating with each other – both on and off the Court.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:33 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiChau View Post
They already released the team update.
Yeah, but this was released today!
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:36 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperNerd256 View Post
Yeah, but this was released today!
So, there is another team update then? I will patiently wait for it while I code before practice day, tomorrow.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:39 PM
Karibou Karibou is offline
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiChau View Post
So, there is another team update then? I will patiently wait for it while I code before practice day, tomorrow.
I don't know. What time was the Team Update about the bridge sent out?
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:41 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiChau View Post
So, there is another team update then? I will patiently wait for it while I code before practice day, tomorrow.
There is an update, an EXTREMELY rare Wednesday Update. http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/TeamUpdates/0#term%20152

The intent behind the white bridge, and a message that says, in effect, "We are concerned about the reports we have been hearing. Actions like we have been hearing about are frowned upon." There is no explicit penalty given, but with that sort of statement, [G15] could reasonably be applied for uncivil conduct during a match.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 07:49 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

And that's the end of that.
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Unread 03-14-2012, 08:18 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
I wasn't going to post this until later, but the insane CPU usage I've seen this season has prompted me to release this now. I'll do a more formal write up of this in a few days.

Basically, we found ourselves with robot code running near 97% all the time, and it was really messing with our timing. I looked through some of the deep internals of LabVIEW, and found that it's actually quite inefficient in VI scheduling (assuming RT is the same; the documentation did not indicate any differences between LV desktop and LV RT) - In a nutshell, LabVIEW is running a tasking system for each VI, and queuing VI's to run and such.
This seems like an odd place for this discussion, but I'll go ahead and respond here.

The WPILib implementation is indeed pretty heavy. I was able to make small safe enhancements during beta, but due to timing, I could only knock off the biggest issues. At that point, CAN had a call that was quite expensive, and the named registration for RobotDrive was not inplace. I would have liked to do more, and fully intend to do so over the next break.

On the other hand, this is by no means the deep internals of LV, and if by tasking system for each VI, you mean a thread, that is not how scheduling in LV works. I'll be happy to go into more detail, but again, the LV section is a better place to go deeper on this.

While the default framework uses the high level WPILib and regular loops and simple globals, there is certainly no issue with you making mods and using fancier language elements. In fact, that was part of the reason for writing it in source for each language.

Thanks for publishing this, and if you want to go deeper and see how much the various edits saved, please open it up on the LV section.

Greg McKaskle
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Unread 03-15-2012, 11:09 PM
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Re: Team Update - 2012-03-13

Quote:
Originally Posted by apalrd View Post
I wasn't going to post this until later, but the insane CPU usage I've seen this season has prompted me to release this now. I'll do a more formal write up of this in a few days.
I just want you to know that you are a hero to my programmers! They looked at what you had done, and looked for other similar issues in the code, and found several areas where they could optimize the code like this. We were having significant lag issues at our previous regional, even costing us a couple of matches, and the programming subteam believe it was because of the issues you identified. Our code is now running significantly better, thanks to you!

I hope you are going to St. Louis, because I have a whole group who would like to thank you personally!

Thank you!!!
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