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Unread 03-26-2012, 04:10 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_UPS View Post
So, a little off-topic, but something I want to address anyways:

The kid said they were a rookie. Cut them some slack. Instead of publicly shaming them, send them a message that isn't so harsh and explain to them why you think their post was uncalled for.

I'd hate to see someone be shunned and turned off to CD because they stuck their foot in their mouth (because then I'd be half the person I am now... the only reason I kept coming back is cause I'm stubborn).


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HOT/Adam, very graceful replies. I hope that I one day can take criticism as gracefully as you.
In all fairness he said he was a rookie on 470 but had been on another team before so rightfully should know better.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 04:12 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Ayup, missed that part.

None the less, five people shaming someone doesn't solve the problem.

Back to the previous discussion...
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Unread 03-26-2012, 04:27 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
EDIT: It has been brought to my attention that they have been on another team. Although they should know better, there are better ways to show them the error in their ways. I've said some dumb things before on this forum, some that I have been severely scolded for and other that have been handled in a less harsh manner. I know which ones I had grown more from, with clear understanding where I went wrong and why I should think differently.
Have to agree with Katie. While his statement may have been with poor judgement, the response could have been a little bit softer. I too have said some ill-advised things on CD, and thankfully they were taken likely and I was given a second chance. It would be good to apply that here as well.

Quote:
The same goes for pretty much every other team we worked with over the weekend (including 16 Bomb Squad, and 2949 Pwnage).
Glad to hear this, and thank you. Having been a member of our drive team before, I know how important it is to not only develop a good strategy for the coming match, but make sure all the teams are connected and agree on that strategy.

I can personally say that after attending the Midwest Regional for the last 3 years, I have encountered numerous "powerhouse" teams (16, 71, 111, 118, 148, 1625, 1732). All of these teams, while driven to win with what they think are their best strategies to win, are very welcoming and great to work with. They all have a lot of experience, and help to show why their strategy is the best one to win with, not just shove it down your throat. I have the up-most respect for these teams and they are some of the most gracious teams I have ever encountered.

Will you occasionally run into some one who thinks they know what's best and you don't? sure. Does that mean you should hate their team forever? Definitely not.

I suppose that's just my $0.02

-Nick
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Unread 03-26-2012, 04:35 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

This thread reminded me of something really rather disturbing that happened to several members of my team at Championships in 2010.

As you may/may not know, team 1868 is an all-girls team. We're nowhere near being a powerhouse team, but we usually do reasonably well and 2010 was a good year for us. A couple of team members went up to the drive team of an alliance member during queue to talk strategy.

To our astonishment, they point-blank refused to talk to us, saying that all-girls teams suck and that we should play defense while they scored. One person literally spat at my friend in the face when she started to say that actually we were a pretty good midfield team and that that might be a better role for us to play.

The girls in question unfortunately didn't tell any FIRST officials at the time, and I didn't even hear about it until that night at our pick-list meeting. I was astonished that this had happened in FIRST, which has always been an incredibly supportive environment even for people who don't fit the usual expectations of a "robotics nerd".

I know that this isn't the sort of elitist that was directly related to the topic of the thread, but I think it is important that the community know that incidents like this happen even in FIRST.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 04:42 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

While the OP was pointing out a single instance involving the HOT team, we can not and should not single them out. I've been around FIRST for a while now and these types of actions are not limited to the so called "Elitist" teams. Every team is out to win, every team wants to show off what they built, and every team has their moments of weakness. I've had a past life as a drive coach, so I'm well aware of what goes on during strategy development, on field actions, and the potential fallout of when things don't go as you want. Some times you see a matchup and want the alliance to know this is what has to be done to win, some times the matchup allows for a variety of options. Every match is different and everybody's willingness to go along with the set strategy may not always be equal. Having a solid strategy may sometimes come off as "we are telling you what to do," but in reality, they are just looking out for what's best for the alliance.

For those that have claimed that HOT is solely about winning and doesn't care about anything or anyone else, hopefully you will someday change your mind. I've heard this claim before, and I've been quick to try and diffuse that notion. Over the years I have worked with and built relationships many HOT team alumni. I've never met a group of people more passionate about FIRST and all that it stands for. Whether helping get new teams off the ground or joining a struggling veteran, people that have gone through the system that HOT has developed have proven to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful in all situations.

My team has unfortunately been elimated by HOT twice this year, first in the finals at Waterford, and most recently in the quarterfinals at Northville. There aren't any hard feelings, infact laughs and congratulatory words were shared by both in each instance. If nothing else, these experiences serve as an inspiration to keep improving.
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Last edited by Mullen : 03-26-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by hounvs View Post
I'm a rookie on 470 but I've been on another team before. I've experience this with the same team and have seen them do it to other teams as well. They don't deserve a second chance, they deserve to be banned from FIRST or otherwise chastised for their blatant disregard of gracious professionalism.

Obviously, we have plenty of issues ourselves, and NO ONE should ever be banned from FIRST. We live, we grow, teach and learn. Participation is a requirement for that to happen.

I will say, I'm proud of Joel for his effort to start the discussion as a generic topic. A couple years ago, it would have been easy for him to jump on a keyboard and fly off the handle. We all get a bit hot under the collar at times, especially in the heat of competition. (and sometimes during the build.) Hopefully we learn to cool off and look at situations objectively, before we do or say something to aggravate them. From what I've read here, I'd say the result has largely been a healthy discussion.

Thank You Adam, for your comments as well! Indeed, as was stated earlier, a "Class Act". I for one, would love to pick your brain on a number of subjects. Hope we get a chance to talk at MSC. The Students aren't the only ones in this to learn.

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Unread 03-26-2012, 05:07 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Great thread, good response by Adam.

It is an important issue to flesh out as I've had my moments in competition as a spectator and alumni commentator amongst FIRST friends (and these days, advising the Ypsi teams, more so 470).

Since I have joined FIRST in 2001 (FLL, older sister in FRC on the championship winning team (for those keeping notes at home: Penguins, post Mystery Machine)), I have had (way too much) time to think this over. But I really do not worry too much about it, as what we discuss here reflects fairly accurately on the real world (i.e. USA over the rest of the world, yet that is disappearing as we speak).

Thus, some thoughts:

1.) The "speak softly and carry a big stick quote" is important. For those of us who work hard on the "speak softly" part of this, the "carrying a big stick" part has a heck of a learning curve, and with teams (or generally large groups) this is a heck of a task... Same goes if you're working hard on carrying the big stick and need the speak softly bit.

2.) As an alumnus of 66, and having had the privilege to be partners with 67 back in 2005's GLR, I must admit that yes, it is great to be on a great team with a great robot, etc. etc. etc. But it is extremely good to keep the mind in check. As in asking yourself: OK, team's good, competition looking like it is going to be ours, are our partners in line with us? Did we miscommunicate something? How do things look from the less experienced or less capable teams and how can I work with them so that our alliance and/or the overall competition experience comes off well.

2a.) This goes for in real life too: prospects for college/career look good, family and friends online with you here? Any miscommunications need addressing? etc. Oh yeah, do I have some idea or a strategy with what I am doing in life? Build confidence on facts, credible claims, and solid skills. And even then, always be looking out for the next possible 'gotcha'. Keep on this and you'll have no time for grumbling against others.

I post this, apologizing for where I have screwed up (mightily) before (even this weekend).

On a side note: Joel made a small uttering of Ypsilanti and Willow Run School Districts consolidating. This will be put up to a vote, if it passes, there is a likelihood that 66/470 could pool resources, hopefully not merge, as having a couple teams in the area is good for many reasons. I anticipate any result to be awesome, but I will be monitoring closely to help things go smoothly... :/

Peace to all!
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Unread 03-26-2012, 05:12 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

There are some teams who act as if they are "better" than others, but if you look closely at it, they generally are. If I were in some great coincidence allianced with 67 in a match, I'd listen to them. They have much more experience and knowledge than I do, and if I listen to them, I'll learn a thing or two.

Now when I say these teams act "better" than others, I don't mean they are ignorant and snotty, as others have referred to them as. I mean they act like they know what they're doing, like the finals fields aren't new to them. These teams have much more experience than the average team, and in some cases, may know a better strategy than the average teams. As an average team, we (my team included) should not only look up to these teams, but learn from everything they tell us.

It's like talking with a college professor. The professor obviously knows more than you do, so instead of calling him an elitist, and saying he/she thinks he/she is better than you, try and take the opportunity to learn as much as you can from him/her.

These teams aren't elitists, but they sure are elite.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 05:18 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallieJ View Post
This thread reminded me of something really rather disturbing that happened to several members of my team at Championships in 2010.

As you may/may not know, team 1868 is an all-girls team. We're nowhere near being a powerhouse team, but we usually do reasonably well and 2010 was a good year for us. A couple of team members went up to the drive team of an alliance member during queue to talk strategy.

To our astonishment, they point-blank refused to talk to us, saying that all-girls teams suck and that we should play defense while they scored. One person literally spat at my friend in the face when she started to say that actually we were a pretty good midfield team and that that might be a better role for us to play.

The girls in question unfortunately didn't tell any FIRST officials at the time, and I didn't even hear about it until that night at our pick-list meeting. I was astonished that this had happened in FIRST, which has always been an incredibly supportive environment even for people who don't fit the usual expectations of a "robotics nerd".

I know that this isn't the sort of elitist that was directly related to the topic of the thread, but I think it is important that the community know that incidents like this happen even in FIRST.
I have coached/mentored an all female team for ten years in FIRST, and although this sort of thing has happened to us on occasion, it is very rare. Most of the teams that we have encountered base their perceptions of us on our performance, not on the fact that the only males on our team are some of the mentors. I make a point of telling my team that as females, there may be people out there who have doubts about their ability to design and build robots, but the best way to show them they are wrong is to prove it on the field or in the pits by succeeding themselves and helping others succeed. However, on the rare occasions this has happened, I made sure that I or another mentor would hear about it immediately so that we could go have a private chat with a mentor from that team afterward. Doing your best and trying to exhibit GP at all times pays off, and is the best way to answer those that look down on you. And, to get back to the topic of this thread, I have found that when we do this, those "Elite" teams take notice, and we have rarely had a problem being snubbed by the powerhouses.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:06 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by 470-RBTX View Post
This person is not on our team, and his words go against everything we stand for.

Please do not relate this to our team.
Well this got nasty really quickly. Seems like time for a thread closure.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:21 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

I meant to say this at the start of the thread. But experience does not equal the right to run a match how a team sees fit. If they want to lead the match, and the other teams are willing to follow, then so be it. But it in no way gives a team right to boss others around. I AM NOT saying that's what anyone was doing, I wasn't there. All the information I have it by this thread. So I won't make judgments. But a lot of people are saying that because a certain team is ludicrously amazing at building robots, and has a history of winning the highest, most prestigious and honorable awards in FIRST, that they should have been listened to, no matter what. I respectfully disagree.

-Leeland
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:31 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

The OP can request that the thread be closed.
That said, as the OP for the thread, We Left The Boys At Home, the thread was closed, initially, at my request - and then reopened later, to my surprise. I think a mentor or two felt the discussion wasn't over and asked that it be reopened. I'm really glad that it was. It is one of my favorite threads in ChiefDelphi. This one is becoming another favorite and will be one that I refer to for any number of reasons.

I trust the moderators to be following this thread and they will determine if it is in need of closing. I also think the OP will know when enough is enough.

In the meantime, there are still lots of interesting posts that are contributing to a good discussion.

Jane
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:40 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007 View Post
On a side note: Joel made a small uttering of Ypsilanti and Willow Run School Districts consolidating. This will be put up to a vote, if it passes, there is a likelihood that 66/470 could pool resources, hopefully not merge, as having a couple teams in the area is good for many reasons. I anticipate any result to be awesome, but I will be monitoring closely to help things go smoothly... :/
Run like the Triplets or Martians instead of Wings of Fire? How Dare You!

In all seriousness, I think this thread is a really good wake-up call despite the tendency for verbal beat-downs, and should thus remain open for some time longer as its purpose is still present.

If you're an elite team, or are thought of as an elite team, it's an opportunity for self-reflection and an evaluation of how you come across. It's also an opportunity to reach out to other teams in the area on non-robot-related items--how do we come across? Do we come across as arrogant, elitist, entitled jerks, or do we come across as just another team that somehow happens to have multiple event wins and awards and wants everyone else to share in our knowledge?

And, if you're not in the elite class, what is YOUR attitude towards the teams that you consider to be in that class? Are you assuming that they are unapproachable, godlike, disdainful? Or are you making the attempt to talk to them? Learn from them? As the early discussion showed, sometimes the best of the best don't act the best. And sometimes it's on them to cross the gap and sometimes it's not.

Threads like this one sometimes have to be brought up. And quite often, proflict* produces the best results. These threads--and boy are there a lot this year!--serve a useful purpose. After all, if everything's going A-OK, then there just might be something horribly wrong...


*proflict: (n) Disagreement that is hashed out in a productive manner. Similar to conflict, but directed towards solving a problem, not attacking things that disagree with your methods/ideals/solutions.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:48 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

I agree. I think the this thread has not gotten nearly as out of hand as some of the other threads relating to this type of topic.

I think there are still some opportunities for people to express either their thoughts and impressions of different teams or experiences where issues may have come up and how they were handled.

One thing I did notice, is that I keep calling 470-RBTX, Joe, instead of Joel. This was not done on purpose. I just thought I read his name was Joe when I started my initial response and carried that through most of my posts. This was not done intentionally.

I am very excited to get to Troy this weekend, so I can experience some of these interactions with this new understanding. Hopefully, we can all have some good strategy discussions and have a great competition together.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:53 PM
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Re: Elitist Teams

I think everything that needs to be said has been said and we've all left this thread a little smarter, a closure would be appreciated.
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