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Unread 05-16-2012, 06:57 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Undertones View Post
Hmmmmm. I hope all teams can afford to send an adult representative in. Other than that, a step in the right direction, for sure.
Based on other posts, it appears FIRST is paying the expenses for getting the robots and the people there for the weekend.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 07:09 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

My number one fear is that everything just works in Manchester, as it has for 95%+ of matches all season.

Here's hoping that the Einstein field fails spectacularly (and repeatably). Never thought I would have to say that sentence...
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Unread 05-16-2012, 08:28 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
The field elements only (border and mechanical parts) were stored in Tenn. The electronics had been used at four prior events and were chosen for their proven track record at those prior events.
Do we know which events that field was at?

I'm asking because several of us saw consistent issues with the electronics that were on the field that went from BAE to WPI to NYC to BOS to CT. I think several teams have recoreded the data pretty well on that particular field so I'm very curious if it was the same field package.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 09:36 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

I am a mentor/coach for a rookie team and I just have one question about the final 12 headed to FIRST. How many of the robots in question that lost communication during the matches had on-board cpu's? Its just a thought that might be an issue. One more x-file!
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Unread 05-16-2012, 09:53 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Just to reiterate for those jumping to the end of the thread...
The field elements only (border and mechanical parts) were stored in Tenn. The electronics had been used at four prior events and were chosen for their proven track record at those prior events.
FIRST is taking this very seriously, from Jon and Dean all the way down. Everyone is committed to finding out exactly what happened. FIRST started this process right after Champs and has been working hard to collect data from all involved.

Thank you to all teams that are participating.
Al, when you say the electronics were used elsewhere, could you clarify which components you are referring to, if you have the info? The three electronic components can be categorized as:

1. FMS/Stinger
2. Scoring electronics
3. Driver station electronics
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Unread 05-16-2012, 09:58 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

This is a great step by FIRST, and I applaud its efforts to try to make sure this never happens again.

Having all 12 teams there worries me a little bit though. People have discussed "replaying" Einstein at IRI, and it almost seems like FIRST has accidentally provided this. I hope that these field tests don't devolve into an attempt by teams to try to see what would have happened if the problems had never come up.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 10:14 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
This is a great step by FIRST, and I applaud its efforts to try to make sure this never happens again.

Having all 12 teams there worries me a little bit though. People have discussed "replaying" Einstein at IRI, and it almost seems like FIRST has accidentally provided this. I hope that these field tests don't devolve into an attempt by teams to try to see what would have happened if the problems had never come up.
I doubt that the one or two people from each team would be able to compete at anywhere near the level of the Championship, especially without any pit support, most likely the drive coach and at least one driver. I think 25, 16 and 180's well fought and earned victory is safe from controversy.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 10:24 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Richard,
All non-mechanical parts, is what I have been told. That seems to fit your entire list.
I don't know what events used this package, but after testing prior to the season, most fields end up in three or four events as I remember.
This is not an attempt to replay Einstein, it is an attempt to duplicate the problems and find the cause(s) and document them. The only thing that can't be duplicated is the raging storm outside in St. Louis and the power distribution in the dome. As Jon has pointed out, everything else will be in Manchester.
I wouldn't read into this in any way. FIRST wants to get to the bottom of the problems and it seems they are doing just that. Getting 12 robots, all the team people, food and hotel, and the staff of experts to Manchester and back home is a huge expense. That should tell how committed they are.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 10:24 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
Having all 12 teams there worries me a little bit though. People have discussed "replaying" Einstein at IRI, and it almost seems like FIRST has accidentally provided this. I hope that these field tests don't devolve into an attempt by teams to try to see what would have happened if the problems had never come up.

My first reaction to this is, why even go there? My response to my own question is along the lines of the professional attitude and expertise that each team will bring to the field tests. Nothing will devolve on the part of these Einstein worthy teams. They have an amazing opportunity and they will take full advantage of it in order to improve the situation and help to solve the problems.

Jane
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Unread 05-16-2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
...... it is an attempt to duplicate the problems and find the cause(s) and document them. The only thing that can't be duplicated is the raging storm outside in St. Louis and the power distribution in the dome. As Jon has pointed out, everything else will be in Manchester.
...
I think there is one thing they will not be able to fully replicate in Manchester, the audience and all their electronic devices.

This is just my $.02 and based on comments of others and observation.

Which matches have the most attendees? The World Finals on Einstein. Those are followed closely by the eliminations on each field.
My understanding is that each field also experienced problems as they moved into the eliminations.

More people = More devices = More potential for interference.

I'm not saying this is the root cause, but it really needs to be considered if they want to completely replicate the experience on Einstein.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 12:18 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

Keep in mind that there are many ways the investigation by FIRST can turn out:

1. They are certain the cause of the problem(s) were found and fixed 100%. Ideally this is what we are all hoping for, but chances are probably 50/50 it will occur.

2. They are confident problem(s) were found and fixed. Issues don't recur in test environment but failures do appear at IRI (for example).

3. Things were found that could be the cause of the problem(s) but due to the intermittent nature of the problem or the inability to recreate the problem in a test environment no one can be sure the problem is solved.

4. Problem(s) are caused by multiple issues combined to produce a failure. Some of the defects are solved and the problem does not reappear... until later when another combination of issues causes the failure to recur.

5. Nothing is found

The nature of intermittent problems in a complex system means you will not likely be 100% confident problem(s) have resolved. The best you can hope for is moving the confidence level more towards the 100% level.

By FIRST taking the effort to conduct a significant dive into the problem, including attempting to recreate the environment as much as possible helps tremendously in letting us know that FIRST recognizes there is a problem and they are making an effort to resolve it. Results in the 1-4 category above will help move the confidence level in the field towards the 100% level (some more than others). If category 5 happens, well, the confidence level will probably stay where it is at.

Kudos to FIRST and all involved in the investigation for taking the time, effort, resources, and dollars necessary to deal with this issue.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
Having all 12 teams there worries me a little bit though. People have discussed "replaying" Einstein at IRI, and it almost seems like FIRST has accidentally provided this. I hope that these field tests don't devolve into an attempt by teams to try to see what would have happened if the problems had never come up.
I'm fairly certain there is zero chance of this... even if each team was allowed to bring more than 1 or 2 people. The poise with which all of the teams on Einstein handled the situation was exactly the definition of GP. By any of our standards, no one would have been surprised if one of the teams drivers or coaches threw up their hands in frustration or stomped around the edge of the field. Yet by everything I saw (we had direct view of the red side of the field), everyone remained calm and cool, and I even watched video showing the losing teams clapping with smiling faces. How they pulled that off is beyond me, but true evidence that they are Einstein caliber teams. I don't think any of those teams will be out to change our minds, and I think all of them have earnest interest in helping us all solve the issues and end up with a system that REALLY works so we can all play at our fullest potentials next year.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 03:23 PM
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Re: FIRST is realy looking into the Einstein problems

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Originally Posted by rsisk View Post
Keep in mind that there are many ways the investigation by FIRST can turn out:

1. They are certain the cause of the problem(s) were found and fixed 100%. Ideally this is what we are all hoping for, but chances are probably 50/50 it will occur.

2. They are confident problem(s) were found and fixed. Issues don't recur in test environment but failures do appear at IRI (for example).

3. Things were found that could be the cause of the problem(s) but due to the intermittent nature of the problem or the inability to recreate the problem in a test environment no one can be sure the problem is solved.

4. Problem(s) are caused by multiple issues combined to produce a failure. Some of the defects are solved and the problem does not reappear... until later when another combination of issues causes the failure to recur.

5. Nothing is found

The nature of intermittent problems in a complex system means you will not likely be 100% confident problem(s) have resolved. The best you can hope for is moving the confidence level more towards the 100% level.

By FIRST taking the effort to conduct a significant dive into the problem, including attempting to recreate the environment as much as possible helps tremendously in letting us know that FIRST recognizes there is a problem and they are making an effort to resolve it. Results in the 1-4 category above will help move the confidence level in the field towards the 100% level (some more than others). If category 5 happens, well, the confidence level will probably stay where it is at.

Kudos to FIRST and all involved in the investigation for taking the time, effort, resources, and dollars necessary to deal with this issue.
This is a great way to describe the problem in front of us. The fact that First is going "all out" to reproduce the problem will help improve the chances of a positive outcome.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 07:42 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

FIRST is the only organization I know of that will go as far as to ask 12 teams to come from around the country to test out a (possibly) faulty playing field to make sure that the game was fair. This is truly gracious professionalism and coopertition at its finest.
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Unread 05-16-2012, 09:29 PM
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Re: FIRST is really looking into the Einstein problems

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FIRST is the only organization I know of that will go as far as to ask 12 teams to come from around the country
Around the world. The Eh-team is Canadian. Simbot Facebook said Simbot Jordan was ever so close to home before he got his ticket to FIRST HQ. I dunno where ATA or OP Robotics are, but I'm sure they're meeting their buddy Simbot Jordan at FIRST too
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