OCCRA
Go to Post These are threads, and they are what hold the community together...so CD must be a threaded fastener right? - Andrew Blair [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Old Forum Archives > 2001
CD-Events   CD-Media   CD-Spy   FRC-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
The problem with scouting...

Posted by Trevor McCulloch at 1/29/2001 4:39 PM EST


Student on team #349, The Robahamas, from International Academy and Ford Motor Co and Bosch.



The problem with scouting this year is that now people are using
technology more and more as a tool to solve the problem of trying to scout
all the teams they *need* to know for the competition. Unfortunately, the
methods used are leading us back to the way we used to do things earlier.
In the past, each team would do it's own scouting of each and every other
team. In the end, this led to a lot of unnecessary work. But if we
coordinated scouting between teams, we could reduce the work load for
everyone by centralizing and sharing data. And thus was born the scouting
system.

Now we have a different problem: everyone wants to have their own
scouting system. If everyone creates their own system, then we create the
same problem we were trying to solve by creating these systems in the
first place: to centralize and share data. What really needs to happen is that
we all need to decide on *one* solution, and use that. Right now, we have
a myriad of diverging formats: some use MS Access, some use MySQL,
some use dead-tree format. One system collects one set of data, another
collects a different set. We need to settle on one set of data and one
format to put the data in and a method to transmit this data between
different teams at different events. Without addressing these inherent
problems, any sort of scouting database system isn't really a step forward.

Trevor
Team 349


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The problem with scouting...

Posted by AZTECHS 157 at 1/29/2001 4:54 PM EST


Other on team #157, The AZTECHS, from Assabet Valley RTHS and EMC/Simplex/Intel.


In Reply to: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 4:39 PM EST:



Trevor,
I agree that we need to have a set of data that is consistent and complete. However I disagree that we need one method of access.
Each method has its advantages and disadvantages and some teams may be looking for specific capabilities within their scouting database.
For instance, the Aztechs database is searchable by ability, by team number and/or by competition attended. This could be a great advantage to someone. The Aztechs database as of the moment though cannot be viewed offline. That might be a disadvantage.
My point is that with many different methods to browse the data each person will be able to find whatever information he or she is looking for. The problem we have to avoid is missing and incorrect information.


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The problem with scouting...

Posted by Trevor McCulloch at 1/29/2001 5:12 PM EST


Student on team #349, The Robahamas, from International Academy and Ford Motor Co and Bosch.


In Reply to: Re: The problem with scouting...
Posted by AZTECHS 157 on 1/29/2001 4:54 PM EST:



AZTECHS,
I think we had a small misunderstanding. I was not referring to method of
access, eg online vs. offline (although a system with both is definetely a
plus) or methods of searching for data. Many of the currently available
database solutions offer similar or identical solutions for searching for data.
My point is that we, the teams involved in this competition, ought to find a
way to centralize the data or share data between the multitudes of scouting
systems, or we have lost the most significant advantage of even having
computerized database systems. I do agree it is important to have
different methods to search for data, but I'd rather see multiple front ends to
the same database rather than multiple front ends to a dozen different
databases.

Trevor
Team 349


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The problem with scouting...

Posted by AZTECHS 157 at 1/29/2001 5:23 PM EST


Other on team #157, The AZTECHS, from Assabet Valley RTHS and EMC/Simplex/Intel.


In Reply to: Re: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 5:12 PM EST:



That was my point exactly.


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The problem with scouting...

Posted by Carrie at 1/29/2001 9:48 PM EST


Student on team #27, Team Rush, from OSMTech Academy and Textron.


In Reply to: Re: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 5:12 PM EST:



If you don't mind, team 27 has a datebase and I understand you want to centerlize the information, but some teams look for other stuff than others. I know that we might have a complicated scouting sheet but we get all the information we need to come up with startegies.
~~~~Carrie 27




: AZTECHS,
: I think we had a small misunderstanding. I was not referring to method of
: access, eg online vs. offline (although a system with both is definetely a
: plus) or methods of searching for data. Many of the currently available
: database solutions offer similar or identical solutions for searching for data.
: My point is that we, the teams involved in this competition, ought to find a
: way to centralize the data or share data between the multitudes of scouting
: systems, or we have lost the most significant advantage of even having
: computerized database systems. I do agree it is important to have
: different methods to search for data, but I'd rather see multiple front ends to
: the same database rather than multiple front ends to a dozen different
: databases.

: Trevor
: Team 349


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
My observations on the scouting issue

Posted by Justin at 1/29/2001 5:21 PM EST


Other on team Blue Lightning Alumni Association from RWU sponsored by FIRST-A-holics Anonymous.


In Reply to: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 4:39 PM EST:



Okay,

Here's how it looks from my point of view. It seems that this year online scouting things are all the rage. Which is great and all. But I kind of get the sense that everyone wants theirs to be _the one_...to an extend I can appreciate that. However it is not only counterproductive...but it actually goes against this years idea of working together. All of the points the trevor brought up are very well said. There needs to be a central location, standard of technology, and a standard questionaire. Other wise the data will just be way to scattered, fragmented, etc. to be of any use. So I implore all of the scouters out there to put personal pride aside and work together on the truly ultimate system.

-Justin
__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
We need a 'universal' table design...

Posted by Tom S. at 1/29/2001 6:16 PM EST


Student on team #177, The Bobcats, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells & ONSI.


In Reply to: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 4:39 PM EST:



What we need is a table design that as many teams as possible can follow, this way if we want to centralize the data, all it takes is a simple import. The problem last year was that each team had their own method for collecting data, and obviously their table structures in their databases were different. If there was a set design for all teams to follow for their databases, sharing data would be a heck of a lot easier.

So... how about everyone starts posting what they think is necesary in a scouting report, and we can come up with a set of field names.

I'll start:

Ability to manipulate large balls (y/n)
Ability to manipulate small balls (y/n)
Goal balancing (y/n)
Speed (1-10)
Pushing Power (1-10)
Reliability (1-10)

This is what i can think of off hand, obviously there is more. Once we get a defined set of things we want, we need to come up with field names for the table designs that we suggest everyone use. If we can work together on this... i can gurantee we'll have less work to do in that hot florida sun

Tom


: The problem with scouting this year is that now people are using
: technology more and more as a tool to solve the problem of trying to scout
: all the teams they *need* to know for the competition. Unfortunately, the
: methods used are leading us back to the way we used to do things earlier.
: In the past, each team would do it's own scouting of each and every other
: team. In the end, this led to a lot of unnecessary work. But if we
: coordinated scouting between teams, we could reduce the work load for
: everyone by centralizing and sharing data. And thus was born the scouting
: system.

: Now we have a different problem: everyone wants to have their own
: scouting system. If everyone creates their own system, then we create the
: same problem we were trying to solve by creating these systems in the
: first place: to centralize and share data. What really needs to happen is that
: we all need to decide on *one* solution, and use that. Right now, we have
: a myriad of diverging formats: some use MS Access, some use MySQL,
: some use dead-tree format. One system collects one set of data, another
: collects a different set. We need to settle on one set of data and one
: format to put the data in and a method to transmit this data between
: different teams at different events. Without addressing these inherent
: problems, any sort of scouting database system isn't really a step forward.

: Trevor
: Team 349


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: We need a 'universal' table design...

Posted by Tom at 1/30/2001 7:48 PM EST


Student on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Township High School and Bristol Myers-Squib.


In Reply to: We need a 'universal' table design...
Posted by Tom S. on 1/29/2001 6:16 PM EST:



It won't be that easy to rank a teams speed because you know that they are just going to boast about it and you will end up with inacurate info on the robot.


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: We need a 'universal' table design...

Posted by Tom S. at 1/30/2001 8:00 PM EST


Student on team #177, The Bobcats, from South Windsor High School and International Fuel Cells & ONSI.


In Reply to: Re: We need a 'universal' table design...
Posted by Tom on 1/30/2001 7:48 PM EST:



that is why the data being entered should be entered based on visual observations, not what a team member says. A couple of times last year teams boasted about how well they could do certain things and it turned out they could barely even perform that function of the game. Just some thoughts...

Tom S.

: It won't be that easy to rank a teams speed because you know that they are just going to boast about it and you will end up with inacurate info on the robot.


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
let's start the work

Posted by Ken Leung at 1/30/2001 3:40 AM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: The problem with scouting...
Posted by Trevor McCulloch on 1/29/2001 4:39 PM EST:



Right now, I see another problem... too many discussion and no one willing to start, just because of everyone is too polite to take charge and make decision.

Obviously, there are many solutions to the scouting system. But if we don't get our act together, then no real work are going toward the final system that everyone will be happy with.

Now I might be wrong and not everyone will be happy with the final system, but you know what, at least there will be final system where every team will submit their information to. I am not saying that we should all decide on one system and use it, I am just saying we should start the whole process.

I am suggesting the first step is to find the people who will be willing to spend a lot of time in it. After all, we need to organize this effort to make it useful, and some people need to take charge instead of everyone trying to express their mind. Of course, those people will have to get together in some way to discuss how this group should function.

Next, maybe we will all submit how we think the system should be, and have those people work out what's the best. I am not suggesting those people will have the power to turn down whoever's idea, but only saying that whoever willing to spend time and effort in this deserve to determine how the system should looks like. Then maybe they can finalize a few suggestions and put them out for voting... Then every team will accept that decision and do their share of work by submitting information.

Maybe we ought to have a central place where all the information are stored in, then have people working their own system they are happy with, and have a list of them telling how each work, then the people can use whatever they wantíK this might not be perfect, but at least everyone will see the same information of every team.

Maybe some sort of web page dedicated to developing this system, and that web page will be hosted by the few person, while everyone else as a group can discuss the method on some sort of forum in that site.

I know this way isníŽt going to please everyone simply because not all the opinions will be accepted, as well as on going threats coming from that fact that people might not be able to work with some other people (thatíŽs just the way it is). I am sorry that I cannot make everyone happy with my suggestion. But this is just a suggestion made by one person, so please, tell us about your idea, and get this going in an organized way. You all are welcome to argue against my suggestion, and come up with a much better way. I just want to see a start... And you know what, I challenge you all to come up with a better idea. Come on, prove me wrong, show your potentials and make yourself look good.

Some how... I don't expect anyone to reply, but hey, at least I tried. You know, it doesn't matter what I say. This is for a greater cause! Everyone in FIRST will benefit from a reliable, working and completed scouting system, which is putted together by great minds in FIRST.

-Ken Leung

P.S. Another quick suggestion is: we all should look back at how the Constitution of the United States was putted together... 13 states with extreme disagreements managed to work together and finished the Constitution, as well as the Declaration of Independence...



__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-23-2002, 10:49 PM
archiver archiver is offline
Forum Archival System
#0047 (ChiefDelphi)
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 21,214
archiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond reputearchiver has a reputation beyond repute
Ken is Right

Posted by Erin at 1/30/2001 8:08 AM EST


Other on team #65, Huskie Brigade, from Pontiac Northern High School and GM Powertrain.


In Reply to: let's start the work
Posted by Ken Leung on 1/30/2001 3:40 AM EST:



Ken-
See message above titled "No Problem With Scouting" and "universal terms". You might be pleased to read those. I must commend you as well on or intuition and insight on how to get this done for everybody. You are absolutely right!! We feel the same way.

-Erin Lape
"Thomas Jefferson" (j/k)


__________________
This message was archived from an earlier forum system. Some information may have been left out. Start new discussion in the current forums, and refer back to these threads when necessary.
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What do you use scouting for? Jack Scouting 33 04-28-2003 09:12 AM
Ok one problem cantwell03 Programming 3 02-13-2003 06:28 AM
Not a problem with scouting archiver 2001 7 06-23-2002 10:49 PM
Major problem with chipphua motors aka Scott White Motors 18 03-19-2002 06:44 PM
WASH scouting fields Mike Soukup Scouting 0 02-04-2002 01:39 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi