Chief Delphi Moderators Censoring Posts

[*Rachelle*]

I was also one of the people that saw the "leak". And I understand why all of our posts were deleted.

However, I tend to disagree with those that think everybody knowing about the said "leaked" info would take away from the the feeling of "opening a Christmas present" or (more importantly) the information giving an unfair advantage. The information was just (trying to be vague) a description. Anyways, once info is on the internet it can never be fully deleted. With the information found, it would not have helped get a four day head start as we still don't know the rules to the game are or what we are supposed to do with the said ______. With the info I cannot begin designing a robot, and I can still only speculate what exactly the game will be. Truthfully, if a person started a design it could be rendered useless. I mean, with some change coming, there could be rule coming out that is different than any of us have experienced. A person couldn't design a robot because they don't know if springs are allowed, or if something that is usually illegal, is legal this year.

I also support the moderators, I don't think their ethics were wrong or that they were trying for an unfair advantage (read above). They were doing their jobs and what had been asked of them. With all this said please keep Gracious Professionalism in mind and think before you post aggressive/attacking words (while some of you may not think they are, the connotation a person takes from your words may be seen as aggressive or offensive.)

[Madison]

Someone made a mistake on the internet and we, as a community, had the rare opportunity to help them correct their mistake and minimize the potential negative consequences. We should be proud of that since it's something that happens so rarely and is something that the rest of internet is often loathe to do.

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are. We haven't added any moderators to the team in a long time and there are many of them who are no longer active on the boards or in FIRST, but they're all good, honest people. The notion that we'd censor information for our own gain is hard for me to wrap my head around, but maybe I'd feel differently if the rest were people I didn't know at all.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

I was one of the first moderators on the scene when the leak appeared. We took guidance from FIRST HQ and handled the situation as quickly as possible. Whether people agree or not with the policy of deleting leaked information is a great discussion topic, however it's very important to know and understand and that FIRST wants leaks, whether credible or not, extinguished as quickly as possible and that's what the moderation team here will continue to do.

This is the important thing here. We can all talk back and forth about how we would rather personally handle it, but it's being handled right now well within the terms of ChiefDelphi use, as well as with what HQ wants.

FIRST currently advocates for Chief as an unofficial discussion place - not listening to their requests might mean we don't get to maintain that positive relationship. I'd much rather see FIRST channeling people towards CD than ignoring its existence because of some posters' behavior.

Originally Posted by Madison

Someone made a mistake on the internet and we, as a community, had the rare opportunity to help them correct their mistake and minimize the potential negative consequences. We should be proud of that since it's something that happens so rarely and is something that the rest of internet is often loathe to do.

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are. We haven't added any moderators to the team in a long time and there are many of them who are no longer active on the boards or in FIRST, but they're all good, honest people. The notion that we'd censor information for our own gain is hard for me to wrap my head around, but maybe I'd feel differently if the rest were people I didn't know at all.

I had a headache over this one too, Madison. Anyone who knows even a few of these moderators personally should be able to understand the caliber of person that they are. Anything they do in their position as moderator is for the general health & welfare of the forum, not for their personal gain. Their maturity in that respect is exactly why they're mods, and I feel badly that they're being hung out to dry right now.

While this is a good philosophical discussion to have (as long as it stays respectful), I think there are plenty of other hints/information to speculate from, and quite a few other tasks to get done pre-kickoff than worry about your 'rights' as a voluntary user of ChiefDelphi.

[IronicDeadBird]

Wow...
With a side of wow.
Just got out after a day working with children at a sports camp and you know cheating there, kinda frowned upon. I can handle one kid not sitting down when they get tagged in dodge ball, but an unknown number of people seeing something that could effect gameplay? How do you even start to deal with that... Robot in 3 days is impressive but the response time on here was amazing. My shout out goes to the moderators for acting in such a prompt way. Now the question is how do I do probe for leaks on the team without causing a curious student to go digging up some forbidden fruit.
Also yeah totally pretty sure I signed an agreement to use this and it says somewhere mods can moderate.

[Bochek]

Hi everyone,

I've been driving from Montreal back to Ontario for the last 7 hours or so, I've been reading all the responses but have been unable to reply.

I would like to preface this post by making it clear that it was not my intent to point fingers in my original post.

While I was, and still am upset by the moderators choice to delete posts of this nature. I understand that it is well within the forum rules to do so. I was hopeful that the original post would start a discussion on the ethics of deleting these posts. While it is my belief that information such as this should be shared amongst the masses, I understand many people don't feel the same way I do.

I'm going to touch on a couple of points brought up in this thread:

Some of the posts in this thread make me curious how many of CD's current users know who the moderators are.

Madison, I couldn't agree more. I've been a member for nearly 8 years this is only the 2nd time I have ever had any interaction with a moderator.

Did you ever consider that the moderators might have been working with FIRST to ensure their confidential information was protected?

Karthik, sure I did. I also had lots of other ideas for motive to delete the posts. Take a second to look at this from my end. My posts just started to disappear. No PM's or other forms of communication where left for me with any reason as to why they where being deleted.

Honestly, my first through was that whoever made the mistake of leaking the information in the first place was probably a moderator on CD, perhaps the Reddit FRC community as well and they might be trying to cover their mistake by deleting all posts related to the topic.


Finally, I would like to add that while I did choose to share this information with my team. It really does provide no advantage.

*Rachelle* summed it up perfectly.

With the information found, it would not have helped get a four day head start as we still don't know the rules to the game are or what we are supposed to do with the said ______. With the info I cannot begin designing a robot, and I can still only speculate what exactly the game will be.

- Bochek

[Xax]

Although the moderators were able to quickly remove the leak it is still out there, it took me less than 30 minutes of [edit: not going to allow hints or anything hinty on how to find it --Billfred] to find it. Just like I tell my students, once it's on the internet you can't get it back. While I agree that it is certainly well within the moderators' rights to remove the information from CD they can only do so much due to the nature of the internet. Regardless, if someone wanted to find the information bad enough it is there to be found.

I'm not trying to encourage people to go looking for it, I'm just saying the the moderators can't make all of the problems disappear (though they are awesome people).

[Steven Smith]

There is a lot of overlap between team mentors, FIRST volunteers, forum moderators, etc...

There is a huge amount of work to get done before kickoff, that requires a rather large group of people to sign NDAs and commit to keeping quiet. Part of the reason is to ensure the integrity of the game, and the other part is because it frankly ruins the fun for anyone who finds leaked information. I think it is a testament to the FIRST community that this is able to happen every year with the only known leaks being pure accident or not benefiting the most competitive teams.

Finding this information out a few days before kickoff is immaterial. There are plenty of other ways to cheat at FIRST, but at the end of the day, the best teams/mentors don't cheat because the advantage is minimal and the risk to their reputation far outweighs any "benefit". Personally, I'd hate to act on some leaked information to gain a benefit, because if we did place well, I'd always wonder if we deserved it.

I believe the moderating community was acting out of respect for the hundreds/thousands of CD readers that have the technical ability to hunt down the leak, but choose not to out of respect for the game. It wasn't to protect any personal advantage, or anything else. If you care about FIRST, I'd recommend you ignore it as well until Saturday. If you've seen it, you have a decision to make. Do you act on the information, and cheat... or not? It doesn't matter how many people have seen it, if you find information out before the game and start designing around it, you are cheating. We (FIRSTers) manage to avoid chances to cheat such as designing robot parts before kickoff, working past bag and tag, managing conflicts of interest between refs/judges at events and the teams they are associated with, etc. I don't see how this is any different.

[Billfred]

I'm going to throw my hat in here blind, as I have made a few deletions and edits to remove leaked information. (A bit of background: As the Kickoff Coordinator for South Carolina this year, I've signed a non-disclosure agreement with FIRST HQ and have seen the kits of parts while moving them into storage. I have not seen field drawings, and I have not seen game or robot rules. The leaks I've taken action on have shown me nothing I haven't already seen.)

Let's quote the Administration Manual on Gracious Professionalism:

Originally Posted by Section 1.2, first bullet

Gracious folks respect others and let that respect show in their actions.

Now, I've long advocated that GP is best used as an internal barometer...but given that FIRST takes the secrecy of the game before Kickoff seriously enough to make anyone that might get a little whiff of something sign a non-disclosure agreement, I find it very hard to believe that an intentional leaker is showing respect for FIRST's position on the matter. I don't think we're being too draconian by upholding their desire to keep the game a secret until such time that they choose to release information themselves.

---------------------------------

There's an old Woodie anecdote where a mentor asked him why we only get six weeks--the response was something along the lines of "because we like you and care about your health". Our local Kickoff received the kits the week before Christmas, and while I didn't open any packages I saw enough things to spend a week and a half turning around in my head "What is FIRST going to do with [bleep] and [bleep]?" Having spent eleven seasons on the outside and now having a little taste of the inside: enjoy life on the outside while you can!

[wajirock]

I for one generally do not like leaks. To me, leaks are like movie spoilers, the movie is not as exciting if you heard the spoiler. Kick Off is one of the most exciting events of the year for most people. And again, if someone learns about the leak, Kick Off may be less exciting for them.

[asid61]

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by asid61

Doesn't deleting something in the Game Hint thread pretty much just verify it? If it's left there, then everybody just assumes that it's just a hypothesis. It would have to be one heck of a post to be deemed realiable enough to delete.
I did not see the so-called leak (or at least I think I didn't), but I hope that this was considered.

The leak was real. If you saw it, you could confirm it on an outside website, and FIRST HQ asked for it to be taken down from Chief Delphi. The FRC reddit people did the same thing.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by Bochek

Finally, I would like to add that while I did choose to share this information with my team.
- Bochek

That, my friend, is quite disappointing.

[matthewdenny]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

That, my friend, is quite disappointing.

While I haven't seen the leak, I understand it to not give significant advantage to those that did.

The OP didn't hack into a computer network or break in to a building in NH, or any unethical act to come across the information.

As the mentor of his team he has the responsibility to decide what to share with his team. It isn't up to us to decide what is GP for others. It is a standard that in gray areas is up to each to hold themselves to that standard.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by matthewdenny

While I haven't seen the leak, I understand it to not give significant advantage to those that did.

The OP didn't hack into a computer network or break in to a building in NH, or any unethical act to come across the information.

As the mentor of his team he has the responsibility to decide what to share with his team. It isn't up to us to decide what is GP for others. It is a standard that in gray areas is up to each to hold themselves to that standard.

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowly and reevaluate your response.

[asid61]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

You are telling a Champion Woodie Flowers winner what GP is? I think that Mr. Fultz is well aware what GP and FIRST is about. Matt, please back away slowing and reevaluate your response.

While I do understand your stance on this (and Mr. Fultz's), I can see where Matt is coming from as well. Just because he didn't win an award doesn't mean he's wrong to have an opinon.