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To all the multi-regional teams...a question.

Posted by Anton Abaya at 03/19/2001 12:52 AM EST


Coach on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and If only we had free donuts....



Okay here goes...

after going to your 2nd or 3rd regional, what was your experience like?

were you making stupid mistakes? we're you avoiding the same pitholes? do NINNY coaches still exist? are teams more organized? have coaches realized the importance of short timed strategy?

or are teams still confused on how the scoring works? please..indulge me with answers....

what can i expect in florida? should i bring a baseball bat to whack the ninny coaches (lessons learned from a past regional).....?

what do you think....

thanks, as always.

-anton

ps. congratulations to all teams for a job well done.
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Bring the bat!

Posted by Mike Sklar at 03/19/2001 1:09 AM EST


Engineer on team #21, ComBBAT , from Astronaut H.S. and Titusville H.S. and Brevard Community College and Boeing Company and NASA-KSC.


In Reply to: To all the multi-regional teams...a question.
Posted by Anton Abaya on 03/19/2001 12:52 AM EST:



Yes bring the bat for all the idiots. I don't think Nationals will be any better in the "smart coaches/smart teams" dept. Some people just don't get it even after 1 regional. Also there may be teams that are in their 1st competition at EPCOT.


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Is it really that bad?

Posted by Ken Leung at 03/19/2001 3:18 AM EST


Student on team #192, Gunn Robotics Team, from Henry M. Gunn Senior High School.


In Reply to: Bring the bat!
Posted by Mike Sklar on 03/19/2001 1:09 AM EST:



It seems like lots of people are complaining about coaches being a bit too arrogant about their robot and lots of argument during the planning before the match.

Is it really that bad? From our regional, after we show other teams that we can balance well, it seems like we are able to communicate with other teams well during the 4 minute every round.

Do people think this is still a serious problem, or are people starting to find ways to solve this problem?

Any suggestion for dealing with this problem?



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Re: Is it really that bad?

Posted by Bill Gold at 03/19/2001 11:03 AM EST


Student on team #258 from Lincoln High.


In Reply to: Is it really that bad?
Posted by Ken Leung on 03/19/2001 3:18 AM EST:



It was relatively easy for me to convince other teams in the SoCal Regional to let us score a big ball (because there were only about 8 teams who could actually do it). I'm not sure how much time teams had to strategize in other regionals, but in SoCal they only called 4 teams at a time to the staging area, and those four teams were your partners. So we had what seemed like 10 mins to talk strategies. Is this how the other regionals grouped teams together for matches, or did FIRST just screw up?


: It seems like lots of people are complaining about coaches being a bit too arrogant about their robot and lots of argument during the planning before the match.

: Is it really that bad? From our regional, after we show other teams that we can balance well, it seems like we are able to communicate with other teams well during the 4 minute every round.

: Do people think this is still a serious problem, or are people starting to find ways to solve this problem?

: Any suggestion for dealing with this problem?





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FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Joe Johnson at 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: Is it really that bad?
Posted by Bill Gold on 03/19/2001 11:03 AM EST:



Why is it that some regionals are being reasonable (i.e. giving teams more than 2 minutes to know who their partners are) and some are not?

I KNOW that the rules say that we only have 2 minutes. BUT... at Western Michigan and SoCal (and at several others I hear as well), teams had effectively 10 minutes.

I can say from first hand knowledge that at UTC and at NYC you had 2 minutes. When Match N started, they told the folks in Match N+1 that they were partners. AND in that time, you had to get your controls set up and move and place your robot on the field in addition to getting 4 teams to agree upon a strategy.

This may not be too difficult if every robot can do only one thing effectively, but with many multi-talented robots (e.g. at the UTC regional), it gets very difficult.

I was hoping that the what I heard about how things worked at the WMR was a "silent recall" of the 2 minute rule, but as it turns out, this recall depends on which regional you attend.

I am crossing my fingers for a lucky break at the Great Lakes Regional this weekend.

Joe J.


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Re: FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Joe Ross at 03/19/2001 12:08 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST:



: Why is it that some regionals are being reasonable (i.e. giving teams more than 2 minutes to know who their partners are) and some are not?

: I KNOW that the rules say that we only have 2 minutes. BUT... at Western Michigan and SoCal (and at several others I hear as well), teams had effectively 10 minutes.

: I was hoping that the what I heard about how things worked at the WMR was a "silent recall" of the 2 minute rule, but as it turns out, this recall depends on which regional you attend.

Joe,

I can't answer for any other regionals, but I can tell you that at SoCal the staging area was not large enough for 12 teams called at a time. starting with match 13, they started calling teams a match at a time. It was not a rule change, but a logistical problem. If the other regionals where like this, then the staff at that regional probably had to make the same judgement call.

I'm sure at Florida they will have plenty of room, and teams will be called according to the rules.

PS, for you people who don't know anthing about programmin, != means Not Equal



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(FIRST != ) != (NYC FIRST!)

Posted by Jessica Boucher at 03/19/2001 2:48 PM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Re: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Ross on 03/19/2001 12:08 PM EST:



: PS, for you people who don't know anthing about programmin, != means Not Equal

Yeah, that made me do a double take....first I thought he was talking about "FIRST!" which is how it looks in the NYC regional title (which is the regional 47 was just at), but then I noticed the =.

-Jessica B, #237


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Re: FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD at 03/19/2001 12:46 PM EST


Engineer on team #175, Buzz Robotics, from Enrico Fermi and Hamilton Sundstrand Space Systems Intl.


In Reply to: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST:



Joe,

At the Mid-Atlantic Regional they enforced it 100%. There was a rule that even the last four robots in each group of 12 could not converse before they were officially called or they would be disqualified. I had no problem with the rule -- it leveled the playing field for everyone.

As I have said before, the short amount of time makes strategy planning very difficult; however, I don't support changing it. Given 10 minutes, "better" strategies could be formed. Given 30 minutes, "even better" stategies could be formed. Two minutes IS enough time to form decent strategies. Personally I think the game would be more boring if everyone planned out perfect strategies every time.

If you really want to have people discover new levels of creativity, there's nothing quite like forcing them to think on their feet.

Aidan


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Re: FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Wayne Cokeley at 03/19/2001 4:21 PM EST


Coach on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Twp. H.S. and Bristol-Myers Squibb.


In Reply to: Re: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD on 03/19/2001 12:46 PM EST:



: Joe,

: At the Mid-Atlantic Regional they enforced it 100%. There was a rule that even the last four robots in each group of 12 could not converse before they were officially called or they would be disqualified. I had no problem with the rule -- it leveled the playing field for everyone.

: As I have said before, the short amount of time makes strategy planning very difficult; however, I don't support changing it. Given 10 minutes, "better" strategies could be formed. Given 30 minutes, "even better" stategies could be formed. Two minutes IS enough time to form decent strategies. Personally I think the game would be more boring if everyone planned out perfect strategies every time.

: If you really want to have people discover new levels of creativity, there's nothing quite like forcing them to think on their feet.

: Aidan


Aidan- I felt the two minutes was probably fine at Rutgers but the fact of the matter is that the venue is so noisy that you can't hear a conversation happening right in front of you. There really should be some kind of "quiet zone" where the teams could meet before they step up to the crowds- perhaps in the pit area. The teams could be staged there and then brought out to the arena. Even the corridor at RU would be better than the open gym.
The only other gripe about timing we had was that we played match 95- the very last one- as the extra robot and before we could even get the robot back to the pit and seek out our match partner for the final alliance we were hustled out into the crowd for alliance picking. Neither of the top eight finalists had a chance to discuss the potential alliance choices at all and winged it on the fly. There should have been at least a ten minute buffer time before the pick was made so the team captains could at least introduce themselves.
Things worked out OK in the end and we all had a great set of rounds. But they could be better. I'm still dazzled at where that 544 came from just when you needed it most!....Buzz luck!

Wayne


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Re: FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Bill Gold at 03/19/2001 1:45 PM EST


Student on team #258 from Lincoln High.


In Reply to: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST:



I thought that the extra time we got in LA to strategize wasn't fair. I hope that FIRST cracks down on that 2 minute rule in San Jose so that it doesn't seem like a tainted Regional.

my $0.02...


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Re: FIRST != Consistent

Posted by Nick at 03/19/2001 4:41 PM EST


Student on team #190, Gompei, from Mass Academy and WPI.


In Reply to: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST:



In long Island they told all 12 teams at the same time who there partners were on the first day so some people had more time than others. The second day though seemed to be much better where they enforced the 2 min rule more but not enough.
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difference in volunteers

Posted by colleen - T190 at 03/19/2001 6:27 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: FIRST != Consistent
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/19/2001 11:26 AM EST:



Just noticing even from UTC to Long Island.. there was a difference in the volunteers running that part.. at UTC it was mostly FIRST staff.. at Long Island, they were just general volunteers..

In Long Island it did seem a bit easier.. maybe moreso because the teams were a bit easier to deal with (more robots that could less than UTC, mostly becuase of rookies vs. experienced)... And at Long Island.. you were given a few extra minutes because they seperated the first 4 teams immediately.. and the other two sets somewhat at their leisure.. it was also less noisy (UTC being practically on stage.. LongIsland being behind the stage.. in between pit and stage.. could find quiet for discussion)

Definitely think that rule should at least try to be enforced.. although noticable it was kept a lot stricter in NJ than UTC even.. who knows

As long as it's at least clear and the same for each division in nationals, I think it will be ok
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"There are time multipliers??! cool"

Posted by colleen - T190 at 03/19/2001 11:18 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: To all the multi-regional teams...a question.
Posted by Anton Abaya on 03/19/2001 12:52 AM EST:



There were teams in Long Island that asked that question..

There were teams who didn't push their red button because they didn't know what it did..

It was a strange transition.. dealing with UTC where everyone knows the game and they all just wanna play it 'their' way... to LongIsland where people just wanted to go on the field and do stuff.. i account it to rookie-ness seeing as how much of them were (and the vets like 250, 311 knew how to play the game)

Basically.. we'll see it ALL now in nationals.. the egos.. the 'ninnies'.. the inexperience (from people both have and haven't been to a regional)..

And people still won't understand that if you hit your button and the clock says 1:00 instead of 1:01 it ISN'T a good thing...
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Re: "There are time multipliers??! cool"

Posted by Brian Cholerton at 03/20/2001 10:34 PM EST


Engineer on team #311, Red Jammers, from East Islip High School and KeySpan Energy, Multiline Corp., Computer Assoc..


In Reply to: "There are time multipliers??! cool"
Posted by colleen - T190 on 03/19/2001 11:18 AM EST:



Those words struck fear in our hearts!!

Just a point of information. There are ALOT of rookie teams signed up for Florida. The good thing is that it looks as if all of them will have at least one regional under their belt.

I hope I never hear that question again.....

Or the other one: "What's this button do?"


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Re: To all the multi-regional teams...a question.

Posted by Anne Bergeron at 03/19/2001 11:40 AM EST


Coach on team #608, Prowling Panthers, from Georgia Institute of Technology and Georgia Tech/NASA/UTC/Ford/Ike Murray.


In Reply to: To all the multi-regional teams...a question.
Posted by Anton Abaya on 03/19/2001 12:52 AM EST:




We only went to one regional, Virginia, but the arrogance of other team captains was a big problem. I think everyone needs to be realistic. Even if your robot can do it all, it can't do it all in 2 minutes. I have been in FIRST for 4 years now, I have not seen this many people saying so much and not delivering it. I think that if everyone evaluated their robot more carefully before telling their alliance partners what they can and can't do, everyone would do much better during qualifying rounds.




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