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Unread 11-01-2002, 11:33 PM
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Why Ashlee is the new owner of the tigerbolt chat room.

Considering that people have already been talking about this, I figured that it was time to clarify a few things.

Over the past month (or more), the chit chat forum has become filled with with flame wars. The chat room has become an extension of that. However, only the parties involved on one side of the discussion are present, and the discussions quickly turn in to not discussing the argument, but bashing the people involved (Ad Hominem). Unfortunately, this is the norm, rather then the exception, and the majority of people seem to like this. Because of this, I do not want to be associated with a group of people who find enjoyment in attacking others.

A lot of this is my fault, because I did not stop it soon enough. I fully take
the blame for this. I am sorry to everyone who has been attacked as a result
of the discussions that have taken place in the chat room.

I have made a great number of friends in the chat room, and I hope that these people will keep in touch with me, either through these forums, or on AIM.

Ashlee is now in charge, and her word is law. Just as when Lora transfered ownership to me, I will not be in the chat room for a while. Perhaps I will be back, perhaps not.

Matthew 7:12
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Unread 11-01-2002, 11:46 PM
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Oh, what a night.

I'm sorry, Joe.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 12:06 AM
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Not good

This is not good. You guys need to realize that even if we disagree on politics, religion, which ice cream is better, or what sort of operating system we like... we still should respect each other and get along.

We are all part of a novel movement that IS changing the culture of education. The fusion of inspiration into todays educational systems by means of FIRST is something special, and you guys know it. Don't go and spoil it by ticking each other off over disagreements and opinions that are part of who we are.

So... we should get above personal arguements and respect each other's opinions. We should look to assist each other, rather than bait them into an arguement. Healthy debate is good, and so is getting to know each other is good also... if it stays at that, fine... but there is a line that is sometimes dangerously crossed.

OK... I'm off my soapbox. There is alot that will be going on in the FIRST world in the next few months. Let's concentrate on that.

Andy B.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 12:14 AM
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Well said Andy. Well said. I think that even though we have free speech on Chief Delphi and Tigerbolt we still have a responsibility to be respectful of others views and not always jump all over them.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 12:50 AM
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Well said Andy, yet again...

Ive noticed over the last year that the quality of posting on here has really gone down. Yes Ive contributed to the stupid posts, but even I know what the limits are. Mant people need to figure out where that line is too. This reminds me of what our head teacher says before every competition & event we attend, "Remember, you represent the city of Kokomo, Delphi-Delco and Kokomo High School. You are young adults and you know how to behave."

Even though one person shouldnt make an effect on your view of a team, it does to an extent...


Behave in the forums, but enjoy yourself too. They are put online for a reason.

Sorry to see you go, Joe.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 03:18 AM
Carolyn Duncan Carolyn Duncan is offline
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Unhappy silence boken...

The fact that something like this is what has to be my first post in so long saddens me. The fact that there are people narrow minded enough to cause one of the nicest and most accepting people I know through F.I.R.S.T. to drop so much because no one realzed how dangerous threads about politics, personal views, and morals can be.
Anything posted with any type of "my thougths are better" attitude rather than "this is what I think/feel/believe" and why will, and has, very honestly already caused a large riff between people. Things like this are what cause bad feelings when everyone comes together for competitions. The people who say "oh, you posted this on Delphi and I don't agree so I'm not going to be kind enough to lend you something you need. I want you to lose because you said that."
The whole F.I.R.S.T. organization has grown very considerably and things have changed with growth. One thing that I don't think anyone wants to see is the quality of the program going to pot because of something like this. Forcing the veterans to leave and preventing the newcomers from feeling like they belong unless they start bashing as well is, in my humble opinion, WRONG. Losing someone as talented as Joe is not something anyone who has met him wants to have happen. For those of you who haven't met him you are greatly missing out. There are plenty of other people who are becoming more and more frustrated by the turn that the program has begun to take and are looking for other comperable programs to help promote. Experience is somethng that no one in F.I.RS.T. can afford to lose, not even Dean.
If you think I'm wrong then fomulate a post. But before you click the button to make your words public reread what you have typed and decide if you are about to prove my point for me or not. There are 2 things I have learned to go by when I make public statements are "If ya can't say nuthin' nice don't say nuthin at all" and If it's something you would say with your grandma in the room then kiss her afterwards you're prolly safe." Of course, these are all my opinions ad I mean not fr them to be forced upon anyone who reads them but merely to inspire thought provoing conversation that is not bashing anyone or causing such frustrations as are already brewing. If we all begin to dislike each other now what happens when we all get together to enjoy the fruits of our labor? Why should our eustress of competitions become stress?
Ok, enough from me now. That's more than I deserve already. Try not to prove my point for me, this is one thig I'd like to be wrong about.
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Last edited by Carolyn Duncan : 11-02-2002 at 10:16 AM.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 10:19 AM
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Ive never really liked politics and the internet. It's always goes to far.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 11:29 AM
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I don't see why I get banned for talking about Transformers and The History of Torture by Daniel P. Mannix (which in an interesting piece of literature). They even skipped the warning.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 01:15 PM
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@Andy/Caroline/DJ/Joe: I agree with what all of you said 100%. Sometimes its hard to decide when that ever-so-fine line is crossed. I hope once the season starts up, alot of this nonsense and personal attacking will stop. I just ask that if something starts up, don't join in -- don't reply, that just adds to the fire. Send a moderator a P.M., hit the 'report to moderator' link, or send me a message on AIM. We'll take care of it, either by closing the thread or talking to the individual(s) involved.

And to further add to what DJ said... You are representing yourself, your team, your school, your sponsor, your city, and above all, you are representing FIRST whenever you do anything related to FIRST, even post in these forums. Please remember this, and try to think about what you're saying before you go and post something. Sometimes the 'preview reply' button can be a life-saver. Read it over, see what its going to sound like, and make sure you want those words to represent FIRST & your team that way.
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Last edited by Brandon Martus : 11-02-2002 at 01:18 PM.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBiddy
I don't see why I get banned for talking about Transformers and The History of Torture by Daniel P. Mannix (which in an interesting piece of literature). They even skipped the warning.

1 reason, because Tigerbolt is about FIRST Robotics and a lot of the stuff that you were saying was defently inappropiate.


i haven't been in Tigerbolt in a while and it all has to do with all the garbage that is said in there. FIRST has changed a lot since I've started back in '99 and a lot of it isn't for the good either...


my $2.34
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Unread 11-02-2002, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
i haven't been in Tigerbolt in a while and it all has to do with all the garbage that is said in there. FIRST has changed a lot since I've started back in '99 and a lot of it isn't for the good either...
It isn't really First that you can blame. It's the fact that there are always obnoxious people anywhere you go on the internet and in real life.
Quote:
Transformers and The History of Torture
Err maybee because you were talking about the maiming of people????
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Unread 11-02-2002, 03:00 PM
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I never saw that much robotics talk when I was in Tigerbolt. Why not talk about weird stuff.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wysiswyg

It isn't really First that you can blame. It's the fact that there are always obnoxious people anywhere you go on the internet and in real life.
Err maybee because you were talking about the maiming of people????

I am not blaming FIRST. It's just some people don't really understand what FIRST stands for. They don't fully realize what FIRST is really about. I am just starting to gain the full benefits of the program.

If Dean Kamen would see some of the negative stuff that happens in FIRST, I'm sure he would be very embarrased. I think a big embarrasment was the 2002 Championship awards ceremoney. I was apalled by the behaviors of students from other teams.


There's nothing I can do to help the way that some act, I'm just glad that my team does not act in the manner of some.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
There's nothing I can do to help the way that some act,
Thats when you say to yourself," Thank God I didn't turn out like that." Btw what happened at the awards ceremony anyway. Anyway this forum would be alot better off if the moderator(s) would start closing those political topics.
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Unread 11-02-2002, 07:23 PM
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Unhappy in a way, all of us posters are teachers...

I’ve watch the CD forum and tigerbolt chat for months and months, usually shaking my head from time to time thinking, “Why are people doing this?” At the end, after months of frustration and disappointment, I took the easy way out and ignored most parts.

But then I start thinking, how can I believe in the benefit of the forum and chat room when I don’t even go in there anymore? How can I recommend them to fellow FIRST participants when I don’t even want anything to do with those places anymore? And, as a mentor in FIRST, am I really doing others any good by introducing them into such a hostile environment where they only learn to talk the same way with the same attitude?

Then I hear people like Joe and Carolyn and others blame themselves for what happened, and keep hearing them talk about leaving… I can’t help but wonder, should I blame myself for what happened too? After all, I did tell everyone to go to the forum/chat room if they want to talk about FIRST, and encouraged people to express themselves even though they might not agree with everyone else. But… shouldn’t that be the way it should be?

I started reading for forum again trying to figuring what’s happening… And I sure saw a lot of people expressing themselves freely about their own opinion all right. There were lots of ideas flowing around, and passionate discussions about this and that, inspiring more people to catch on and make sure their voice about the issue is heard. These are the exact same description I would use back when we all though the forum/chatroom were such a wonderful place… Yet… something is different. People aren’t making friends the way they are supposed to… Experienced members got frustrated and decide to want nothing to do with this anymore, and new members coming in thinking, this is the way to do it.

Sigh.

I remember the good old times when I was eager to go into the forum and chatroom and see people talking about interesting issues. I was too afraid to post replies, and was silently reading posts after posts learning whatever I can to prepare myself to enter one of the most exciting places in FIRST community, arming myself with basic knowledge of just about everything, and making sure I sort out my own line of thinking/feeling before I form my voice. And it was a wonderful experience. I ended up posting 2nd most at the 2001 season, and made lots and lots of friends here and there online or at competition. I heard many similar comments from lots of those friends. And I thank all the other posters on the forum for showing me how wonderful the CD forum is.

But now… somehow, all of those seems to have faded away. Well, I guess I can’t say all, but definitely a lot of them. Is it because most of those people decided to move on? Maybe… Is it because they don’t like sharing ideas and inspiring others… Maybe… But if the forum/chatroom are like back then when everyone is so excited about it, would the people have stayed? Well, I have to say, Yes, they probably would’ve stayed. After all, it didn’t take much time to post replies on the forum, and you had so many to gain with the little time you spend every week.

Sigh.

I start thinking about the role I want to take in FIRST and in other places, and I remember how much fun it was to inspire people, and teach them new things. It was truly exciting when I show the students the competition, the robots, the forum and chatroom, and maybe other neat stuff in FIRST. I really believe education and inspiration is the path of life I want to take. But… how can I be a believer when I told people about this place and how good it is, while I don’t even believe that myself…? How can I inspire people when I know that won’t happen when they come in and see all the arguing and bashing of other people? What kind of a role model am I when I just sit aside silently, and do nothing to convince the students that it is worth while to come in and spend time?

Believe it or not, when we register for this forum, and posted the first word in one of the forums, we took on a little of the responsibility of showing others what’s the right thing to say. Lots and lots of viewers who come in here to read the forum look up to us for good ideas and data, because when we started showing our voices in the FIRST community in the forum/chatroom, we became sort of a role model, for newer members to come in and see, what’s the proper way to have intellectual discussions about something we are really excited about. The newer members look at what’s posted/said in the forum/chatroom to see how people are supposed to expression opinions and communicate. In a way, we are all teachers from the beginning we stop being a reader and start being a poster.

Now, I understand not everyone want to take on the role of being a teacher… After all, we all have different goals in life. But hey, we are not exactly full time teacher in a high school… Compare what the real teachers have to do, we are only giving very little part of our time. But, that isn’t an excuse to take our job lightly. For those of you who wants to continue to be a teacher in the forum/chatroom, and for those of you who still believes in the CD forum and tigerbolt chat room, I urge you to take a look at what’s happening here. Some of the finest people in FIRST are going away from this place and lost hope because we fail to show others what posting/chatting really should be. These aren’t just some names on some website… These are our friends in FIRST we are talking about.

I urge you to look into your heart, and ask, “Do I really believe in how good the forum is? Do I want all these to become better again?”

If your answers are “Yes”… Then start posting and show a good example to others ;-). We all have a job to do, if we want something to happen the way we want it to. I always though, “if you want something bad enough, you can work hard to make it happen.” Talk to people, have interesting discussions, show your voice in the good ways you are supposed to. Start influencing and inspiring others by making an example. There are lots of teams out there waiting for the season to start again, and waiting to benefit from the CD forum just the way we benefit when we started.

It is an important task we are taking on right now, whether you realize it or not. The subtle ways in which we express ourselves forum a voice in the FIRST community that others look up to and learn from. If we just leave this place alone or continue the arguments and bashing, it’s only going to get worse. So please think about this, and decide what you want to do.

If you decide to move on and pursue something other interesting things in life, I commend you for taking up the courage to face changes. However, if you decide to stay and try to improve things, THANKS!!!

Its going to take a while, and we aren’t in season yet… But, I really do hope we can restore this forum and the chat room to what they are supposed to be… Places for intelligent discussions about this competition, really good ways to meet others with similar passion, and a fun learning experience where we can learn, share, and inspire ourselves and others.

And that continue to be my wishes…

Please note that, it is not up to yourself and yourself only to make things better. After all, the forum and chat room are formed by many people when they wanted to share their experience with others. Not anyone of us can be expected to change the way everybody acts… But get this: if EVERYONE of us want it enough, it will happen.

I have never had such strong emotions about these sorts of things… I just never realize how real it is until friends around me are getting hurt…

Sigh.
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