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View Poll Results: Will There Ever Be Negative Scores?
Yes, all the time. 9 13.43%
Yes, but not that often (once a day). 18 26.87%
Yes, but only when the best of the best go against eachother (ie Championship). 3 4.48%
Yes, but only durring elimination rounds. 7 10.45%
No, never. 30 44.78%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 01-11-2003, 04:19 PM
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Will There Ever Be Negative Scores?

So, do you?
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Unread 01-11-2003, 04:38 PM
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considering it seems FIRST hasn't quite recognized their error, I think update 4 will have a clause so there won't be negatives. This thread is kind of pointless until FIRST gives a yay/nay on whether or not they intend to allow negatives
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Unread 01-11-2003, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dlavery
You guys are 90% there. Now finish the thought.

Joe's original point was spot-on. One alliance can directly affect the score of the opposing alliance by playing with the opponent stack height (to be complete, you should also assume that the opposing alliance is doing the same to your stacks). A robot could lift a container up to be equivalent to a 10-high stack (hmm, 4.8lb container at 14.75*10=12feet above the base of a 130 lb robot, plus a little "robust physical contact", yields a CG rapidly moving outside the conservative support polygon...), and it is possible to create a negative score.

At this point it is worth pointing out that this potential is exactly why no teams should start any game with a strategy that has them plunking down on top of the ramp and just sitting tight with the expectation that they have a lock on a win with 50 points in the bank...

A little more analysis is then done, with a broader view. Yes, negative scores are possible. But then there are those pesky QP and EP calculations. If your opponent gets a negative score, which means you will probably win, then your alliance gets twice as many negative QPs! You better be REALLY FRIENDLY with your alliance partner if you cause this! Sure, you won the game, but - through your own actions - you actually DROP in the QP standings. By giving your opponent a negative score, you may actually cause them to move ahead of you in the overall tournament standings as you drop down the QP ladder. And because the scoring systems are the same in the qualifiers and finals, this is also true in the finals!

So it quickly becomes obvious that while negative scores are possible, they are generally a bad idea. So their potential use becomes self-limiting. There are a very few particular circumstances where you might be willing to take the QP/EP hit, just to ensure that your opponent moves to a certain position in the QP/EP standings (think about this and you can identify those few circumstances). "Sacrifices" could become an element of the competition! It works in baseball and chess, so why not?

What does this mean? It means that there is a potential whole new level of strategy in the tournament (notice I said "tournament" and not "game"). It means that teams need to start thinking beyond the effects of the current match, and start thinking about multi-match strategies.

Don't automatically assume that this is a "loophole!" This is not an accident that wasn't thought through. It is actually an opening onto a new level of the competition that requires a little more thought and offers more complexity to the players.

-dave


Considering that he created the game and said that tis is not a loophole, and was planned on by FIRST, don't expect this to change
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Unread 01-11-2003, 05:30 PM
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Personally I think FIRST might have slipped when it said what it did in Update #3. I find it hard to beleive that they would put in negative scoring.

BUT, if it does really happen, I don't think that it will happen too often...There are LOTS of boxes out there, so it is unlikely that there will be more boxes in the tallest stack than boxes on the floor.

We shall see.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 06:30 PM
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well if a very underhanded team creates a "virtual stack" of 30 (which would be possible mind you) then there is a VERY slim chance you could get above a negative score.

that's the whole discrepancy...virtual stacks are just...wrong. it's ok to get MORE QP's...but to give a team a negative score is totally not in the spirit of FIRST, and shouldn't be within any team's ethics.

i should hope if they don't change it that the teams will atleast say "hey...that's wrong guys (and gals)."

*jeremy
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Unread 01-11-2003, 06:39 PM
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now im no physicist or anything but lets take your 30 stack arm thats 60 feet long right? if anyone can raise a 5 pound box 60 feet in the air and they are able from being tipped by their opponents which would not only disable them but most likely mangle their precious lifting arm that is if it doesnt hit someone in the audience on the head. I think we are talking virtual stacks of 10-15 maybe from the truly dedicated robots. it will all be ok im sure.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 06:44 PM
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that was purely theoretical...but then again many people said you couldn't get 3 goals and hold them last year....two teams i know of proved them wrong...

*jeremy
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Unread 01-11-2003, 06:50 PM
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So do I? Nope.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy_Mc
that was purely theoretical...but then again many people said you couldn't get 3 goals and hold them last year....two teams i know of proved them wrong...

*jeremy
Grrrrr

You mean 3 teams, right?
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Unread 01-11-2003, 07:30 PM
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It's possible but I highly doubt we'll see many (if any) negative scores. First, a robot will have to raise a box in the air high enough to get a possible negative score. Second, it'll be hard to have just 3-5 boxes on one side and like 40 on the other. Third, the opposing team is not stupid enough to give them negative points because it'll lower their final score (or even make it negative).
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Unread 01-11-2003, 07:32 PM
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You can't because it would screw up the averages for the qp. One negative score and your dead. First wouldn't allow that. Btw how would you get a negative score.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 09:26 PM
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I get it...

There is no way you can get negitive scores. The rule is unclear but after reading it and crumbling up papers for severals minutes, I get it

Quote:
The height of the tallest stack located in the scoring zone (the “multiplier stack”),
measured in whole Stack Height Units (as defined in SC9) is subtracted from the total
number of containers to establish the “base score.” Containers in additional stacks of the
same height will be scored normally
I can see where you get the idea thinking that you subtract the stack score and get a negitive number, but this is not really the case so if you have 4 tubs stacked up and no additional tubs, you (in theory) would get a score of -4 (0 tubs - 4 (for the stack). BUT thats not the case. FIRST IS counting all the totes, so if you have the 4 in a stack and no other totes on the floor, you count the 4 total tubs in your first subtraction number. In the end you subtract 4 (total tubs) - 4 (stack size) and you get a score of 0.


Read the rules again. Thats how I understood and Im not the only one believing this.

Not a wrong rule, just horribly worded

Last edited by D.J. Fluck : 01-11-2003 at 09:36 PM.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 09:32 PM
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DJ, I believe that you are correct. You just need to read over the rules SEVERAL times. Exactly what FIRST said at the kickoff numerous times and in the rule books.
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Unread 01-11-2003, 09:33 PM
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Conspiracy

DJ,

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

These guys are trying to cause a commotion over this... it's all a big distraction. We know the intent... now, get back to your electrical area and finish the wiring for that hovercraft.

Andy B.

ps... "these are not the negative points you are looking for"
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Unread 01-11-2003, 09:42 PM
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If a robot lifts a box up, say 4 box units and there are no other boxes on the side, wouldn't the score be...4 box units times (1 container - 4 container for stack) which means...-12 points? Also, since the minus points is measured by box height, if all 3 of your boxes are on its side and you have no other boxes, couldn't you technically have a box height of 4 and a total of 3 - 4 boxes, which leaves you with -4 points?
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